Early Budd tubeless wheels and radial tires

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sproino
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Early Budd tubeless wheels and radial tires

Post by sproino »

I'm hoping to find a straight answer where there might be none.

My '66 F-350 has four of the early Budd one-piece tubeless wheels on it. I just ordered two more from a junkyard. The completely dry-rotted tires on the truck right now are bias ply.

What I want to put on the truck are Treadwright's radial Axiom 235/80R17 found at https://www.treadwright.com/p-87-235-80 ... a-t-e.aspx.

I've heard tell of stress fractures in these early Budd wheels, in particular. I've also heard not to worry about it, as the problems were long-since resolved. I've heard that Budd redesigned their wheels.

I'm not going to ask if it's safe. I just want to know if I'm going to risk breaking a hen's-teeth rare wheel by using radials.

Also, is anyone making 10-ply or better bias ply tires anymore? The truck is wearing 7.0-17 tires.

Edit: My truck does not have early Budd tubeless wheels on it. It has 6x17 wheels of unknown provenence, which accounts for the 17" tires on it and that I intend to put on it. I have ordered two of the Budd 5.25x17.5 tubelesses for use as a spare. Given that I'm not likley to drive on the spare a lot, I'll sleep easy even with a radial on that wheel. Given that both wheels that come in are good and I don't encounter serious problems with the wheels I have, I'll sell the second 'spare'. The question still stands, if anybody wants to contribute their knowledge on the matter. As is, it's no longer a pressing issue for me.
My wife and I are proud owners of:
1997 Ford Taurus GL (his)
1997 Lincoln Mark VIII (hers)
1974 Lincoln Continental
1966 Ford F-350 verywrongbed
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SC1966
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Re: Early Budd tubeless wheels and radial tires

Post by SC1966 »

I've been reading this forum for 10 years and this is the post that finally got me to register. I have a 66 F350 too. I had a 63 F100 before that. I've collected 5 of the "big six" tubeless rims over the years and am still looking for one more because my truck is a dually. They are rarer than rare, like hen's teeth as you say. Early ones are the 71320's and the later ones are the 79120's. All of the one's I have are 792120's and I've never seen a 73120. As far as your question about stress cracks, I doubt it. Compared to modern rims, these things are built like the Alamo. But, most all the available tires in 17.5" are commercial truck tires and have rigid sidewalls anyway. I am real curious what wheels are on your truck now. I have never seen or heard of an actual 17 inch rim with the big six lug pattern that was not a split rim. I would love to see a picture or get the part number off those rims. Also, if you are serious about selling one of the 17.5" tubeless rims and if it is a Budd 79120 I will buy it.
sproino
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Re: Early Budd tubeless wheels and radial tires

Post by sproino »

SC1966 wrote:I've been reading this forum for 10 years and this is the post that finally got me to register. I have a 66 F350 too. I had a 63 F100 before that. I've collected 5 of the "big six" tubeless rims over the years and am still looking for one more because my truck is a dually. They are rarer than rare, like hen's teeth as you say. Early ones are the 71320's and the later ones are the 79120's. All of the one's I have are 792120's and I've never seen a 73120. As far as your question about stress cracks, I doubt it. Compared to modern rims, these things are built like the Alamo. But, most all the available tires in 17.5" are commercial truck tires and have rigid sidewalls anyway. I am real curious what wheels are on your truck now. I have never seen or heard of an actual 17 inch rim with the big six lug pattern that was not a split rim. I would love to see a picture or get the part number off those rims. Also, if you are serious about selling one of the 17.5" tubeless rims and if it is a Budd 79120 I will buy it.


A lot of my information came straight out of a certain thread on the Ford Truck Forum. This particular post by the amazing and inimitable NumbersDummy let me know the numbers I needed. http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/94558 ... st10263167

I've got two B8Y-1015-A Budd 73230 wheels on the way. I've got a single rear wheel F-350, and these are the wheels meant for it. I'm intending to use one as a spare, and run the mystery 6x17s on the vehicle currently for day-to-day. I'm finding 17.5" tires to be almost as hard to find as big six wheels.

I doubt that wheel is going to help you, I'm sorry to say. I'll be selling the extra provided that both are good and I don't have a bad wheel on the truck. If I've got a bad one on the truck, which I doubt, I guess I'll mount the two coming in on one axle.

Where are the rim markings, generally? I've got one off the truck and I'll look over the exposed portions for now. When the time comes to mount new tires, I'll check the inside two. I'll also take a bunch of photos. I can see why such a wheel would be desirable.

What's a good tire to run on the 17.5" wheels? It's a relief to find out that modern radials can be run on those wheels.

As the views crept up and there was still no answer, I began to worry there might be no answer.
My wife and I are proud owners of:
1997 Ford Taurus GL (his)
1997 Lincoln Mark VIII (hers)
1974 Lincoln Continental
1966 Ford F-350 verywrongbed
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simonscr
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Re: Early Budd tubeless wheels and radial tires

Post by simonscr »

A picture is worth a thousand words. Could you guys post a picture of the wheels? I will be helping a friend part out a 64 this spring, and it has the big 6 lug and is also a dually. It would be nice to know what we have so we can find some one that needs them.
Simon

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sproino
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Re: Early Budd tubeless wheels and radial tires

Post by sproino »

simonscr wrote:A picture is worth a thousand words. Could you guys post a picture of the wheels? I will be helping a friend part out a 64 this spring, and it has the big 6 lug and is also a dually. It would be nice to know what we have so we can find some one that needs them.


It'd help if they didn't mostly look the same.

Measuring the wheel accurately is most important. Visually, the important thing is determining whether you've got split rims, a removeable ring, or one-piece wheels. As best as I can tell, and not everybody seems to use the same terms, the first is a widowmaker, the second is nearly as dangerous when it's being filled, but was called 'safety wheels' when they were made, and the third were meant for tubeless tires.

I think the tubeless ones were only sold by Ford in half-inch sizes.

The numbers from Budd, who made the wheels, should be somewhere on them. I have no idea where.

The eight-page thread on Ford Truck forum that I linked to in my last post has more information on these things than you'd ever want to know from people who know more than me. This was just an effort to distill it a bit.

Wheels measure from where the tire rests, not the extreme outside of the wheel. Measure from where the outside rim turns inward, not from the outside of the lip. That is to say, measure from where the tire would end, not from where the tire first touches the wheel.

When I get photos of the mystery wheels, I'll take photos pointing out where to measure and where the seams would be if they weren't one-piece.
My wife and I are proud owners of:
1997 Ford Taurus GL (his)
1997 Lincoln Mark VIII (hers)
1974 Lincoln Continental
1966 Ford F-350 verywrongbed
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SC1966
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Re: Early Budd tubeless wheels and radial tires

Post by SC1966 »

I didn't know about the 73230s. Sounds like the same rim but without the offset for the dually. I'm going to keep looking for the 79120's so I'll have a working, matching set.

I snapped a picture of each of the two types of wheels that I have. The first is a Firestone 16" rim with a lock-ring. These are the wheels that were on my truck when I bought it. They are stamped FIRESTONE and MADE IN THE USA on the back side of raised portion of the rim. They have 6 handholes.

Image

The second pictures is of the Budd 79120 Rim. These are the ones I'm looking for. They are stamped BUDD on the front of the rim, and 79120 in the outer indented portion on the backside of the rim. They have 3 handholes.

Image

Edited to fix image links.
Last edited by SC1966 on March 4, 2014, 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
sproino
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Re: Early Budd tubeless wheels and radial tires

Post by sproino »

Nuts. I've got widowmakers.

I have no idea how I missed that seam every time I looked at the wheels.

I'll have to see if any of the local tire places are willing to mount on the split rims. Failing that, I guess I'm going to see about laying hands on two more of the one-piece wheels.
My wife and I are proud owners of:
1997 Ford Taurus GL (his)
1997 Lincoln Mark VIII (hers)
1974 Lincoln Continental
1966 Ford F-350 verywrongbed
sproino
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Joined: June 12, 2013, 10:44 pm
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Re: Early Budd tubeless wheels and radial tires

Post by sproino »

I've got a plan. While I rub my hands together and laugh maniacally, I'll tell it to you.

I found an agricultural equipment guy who's willing to pull the wheels apart. He'll only reassemble them if he's reasonably sure they're safe, and I wouldn't ask for anything else.

The disassembled wheels will be brought to an engine rebuilder, where they'll be magnafluxed at about $30 a piece. If they're good, they're going back on the truck as they are. If they're bad, off to Stockton they go! Stockton estimated $165-175 on transplanting the centers. Adding in Treadwright tires, this solution ranges from $160-305 a wheel, including shipping, which is $70 ea.

My alternate solution involves the 73230 wheels from Idaho, plus two more coming from WAY out there. If I order the other two wheels, including the shipping, I'm averaging about $70 a wheel. I found local retread 17.5" tires for $155 ea. On this solution, I'm averaging $225 a wheel.

I'm leaning towards the former because it has the potential to be significantly less expensive, and will continue to allow me to use less expensive and more common wheels in the future.

If all the wheels are bad, I'm using the latter solution. If two or fewer, I'm using the former. Actually, if two are bad, maybe I'll have one type on each axle?

This sure had thrown me for a loop.
My wife and I are proud owners of:
1997 Ford Taurus GL (his)
1997 Lincoln Mark VIII (hers)
1974 Lincoln Continental
1966 Ford F-350 verywrongbed
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SC1966
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Re: Early Budd tubeless wheels and radial tires

Post by SC1966 »

It sounds like you've got a plan. I contacted stockton a couple of weeks ago about making the replacement wheels with our bolt pattern and got this reply:

We can build the 24 series or a dually series

16x6 24 series=$210ea raw with a max backspace of 4.5"
16x6 dually series=$285ea raw with dually backspace (8")
plus shipping and powdercoat if needed

Thanks

It's pretty reasonable, considering how hard these wheels are to find, but since I already have five matching 17.5" rims with good tires I'm not going to go that route yet.
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Re: Early Budd tubeless wheels and radial tires

Post by SC1966 »

Added a picture I found of what I believe is a 73120 Rim. It has 6 handholes instead of 3 like the later 79120.

Image
sproino
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Re: Early Budd tubeless wheels and radial tires

Post by sproino »

It's more than a year later, and I'm reviving this thread.

The wheels on my truck couldn't be salvaged. Significant parts of the lip where the ring attaches were simply gone. They were a ticking timebomb, and it's fortunate that they didn't kill anybody.

I ordered a pair of wheels from a junkyard in Idaho and a pair from a junkyard in Alaska. The wheels from Idaho were exactly what they were supposed to be; the ones from Alaska weren't.

I've got a pair of 215/75R17.5 tires on the wheels from Idaho. The back wheels still have the widowmakers to allow me to move the vehicle in my driveway and avoid the City's ire. They're now half-inflated because I'm scared to put air in them.

Stockton's prices struck me as a bit high. I did find another place in California, Custom and Commercial Wheel, that's building me a pair of 17"x7" wheels for $207 each.

This was after an exhaustive search for 17" wheel shells. A local agricultural wheelwright said he'd weld the centers from my widowmakers into new shells if I could find them. I even have a Carlisle part number, but nobody'd sell them to me.
My wife and I are proud owners of:
1997 Ford Taurus GL (his)
1997 Lincoln Mark VIII (hers)
1974 Lincoln Continental
1966 Ford F-350 verywrongbed
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