Got in trouble pinching pennies - need paint advice

[born4ford]

I have been off-line for a month and a half dealing with a property I have in San Diego but glad to be back home and back to my '65 F250 project. This is going to be a long one, sorry.

The engine and tranny have been rebuilt and are going on the frame soon. I have stumbled along figuring out how to do a lot of things that are new to me like replacing the rag joint, installing 3 point seat belts, doing brake work and covering the interior of the cab with sound deadener. I am trying to be as detailed as I can so I do things like take every rusty screw or bolt to the wire wheel and then coat with rust treatment but I am on a budget and although this is a "frame off" restoration, I can't afford to do things like powder coating. That would be less labor intensive for me but the rattle can paint job on the frame looks pretty darn good.

Trying to pinch pennies has gotten me in a spot this time. Bit by bit I have taken the whole truck apart (God only knows if it will ever go together again, LOL) and I decided to take the hood, quarter panels, doors and about everything but the cab and the bed in to be sandblasted. I had talked myself into doing the paint myself so this made sense. I had done a bit of research but after picking up my sandblasted parts I put in a lot more research. I think the learning curve is way too steep and the investment in tools, sandpaper, sprayer and good primer and paint is pretty high in order to gamble that I get everything right on my first paint job. On top of that it looks like I would need a much better compressor than what I have. So I have a garage full of sandblasted parts (I sprayed the doors with a self-etching primer already) and I need a little guidance to figure out where to go from here. The body is pretty darn straight but I want one of the old bed gas tank openings welded over and it has a few quarter sized dings here and there. I want a two-stage paint job in original turquoise and white. Here are my questions:

1) I need some time to find a good paint and body guy that will take my truck in parts, prep and paint it and put it back together. How should I protect the raw sandblasted parts in the meantime? The doors are already coated with self-etching primer (I did that on advice of a friend), was that the right thing to do?
2) Is it a good idea to do a rust treatment with Ospho or something like Picklex before doing anything else?
3) I want to be somewhat educated about what a good paint job entails. What are the steps from sandblasting to clear coat? The internet is all over the map on this.

Everything is in a dry garage and I live in a low humidity area, by the way. Any help will be much appreciated. It seems like the more I research, the more confused I get and I don't know what advice to trust. I do know that I have gotten some great advice from this forum, though so here I am again.

Julie

[LM14]

The internet is all over the place because this topic can be as big as you want to make it. It isn't cheap to paint anything.

The majority of the labor in a paint job is the prep work. Actually spraying the paint is the fast part.

I would coat your bare metal with epoxy primer, no etch primer. Eastwood makes a decent epoxy for the price.

You are talking well into the thousands of dollars to get somebody to do the body work, paint work and reassembly, no cheap way about that.

I would suggest finding/making a friend that is into body work or wanting to learn along with you. Watch every Youtube video you can find (Eastwood has a whole series for beginners). Everybody starts someplace.

Don't be afraid to do bod work. Read the instructions, follow them to the letter. Spend some money on a good respirator, sanding boards, good sandpaper, get a cheap gun to squirt on the primer. Investment I tools will pay back project after project.

Good luck,
SPark

[unibody madness]

I recently saw one of our members truck that was absolutely beautiful. He started out with a pretty good truck to begin with. He had it in primer for some time then decided to sand and finish the body work. To make a long story short, as mentioned above the money is in the prep. When he was finished he took it to a shop like Maaco, and had it top coated fairly cheap. If I remember he had it epoxy primed, or sealed first. You have to remember these folks spray all day every day and they are pretty good at it. Unless you are doing a concours restoration, you would have a hard time doing it much better or cheaper

[Toyz]

Check your local junior colleges. Often they offer short body and paint courses. Some will allow you to use your own vehicle as subject material. They usually have state of the art equipment, and often supply materials at no cost or a steep discount.
I agree with the idea of Maaco or other franchise operations; just make certain your preps are by the book and top notch. I have received some excellent paint jobs by simply tipping the manager and painter a significant amount.

Paul

[born4ford]

Thanks for your thoughts guys. I was actually excited about doing the body work before I got freaked out about the magnitude of the whole project. It's something that I think I can do well since I can take as long as I want and the process seems to be more forgiving than paint. I looked for a class but I don't have many resources around here. My thoughts are evolving but your input is sure helping.

[jamesdfo]

I know a lot of the fellows over on metalmeet.com are using SPI's Epoxy with good results, and they also have a forum, might be worth doing some recon:)

http://www.southernpolyurethanes.com/


....and remember, buying the tools/equipment can run into some money, but the upside is you have the equipment for future projcts. Paying someone to do the work only gets the current job done, with no change in your equipment inventory or skillset.

[64 litl un]

Your in it now, up to your neck!

You have to put it in some type of primer or your expense to this point would be wasted. As said finding someone to do this will cost a fortune and unfortunately those that are willing may be be less than skilled. Many will refuse such a project.
Research primers. I'm sure you can find something. Some of the better primers can actually have fillers applied over them so theres no need to worry about body work.....That stuff needs some paint. Even if you have to remove it later.....That stuff has to have some paint.

I'll do some checking....I might be able to find what would be a good one to use. Take it one step at a time...like eating an elephant...One bite at a time.

[LM14]

How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.

A complete truck project is the same way.

Body work is the base for everything else. Paint will not cover up bad body work it will magnify it. If it looks wrong it probably is. Wiping a panel with a rag covered in reducer will let you see what it looks like with shine on it. Take your time, research and try it. Nothing to be afraid of, you can always dig bad putty back out and do I gain. Quality products and time.

SPark

[bruceandersson]

I'd second the idea of a technical school. Not sure about Colorado. Here in Ohio, school districts get together and form a joint vocational school where they provide various trade classes. I've had a few friends send cars over to be worked on with good results. I have also seen great results from newbie painters. I'd skip base/clear for solid colors and go with straight color urethane. This can be sanded and buffed to correct problems with the spray. As far as tools go. Your compressor would probably work as long as it is 1HP or greater with at least a 20 gal tank. You may have to work a little slower. You can also get some decent spray guns for not too much money. Devillbiss makes a starting line gun that is decent as well as the Eastwood mid-line guns.

[born4ford]

Love the "up to your neck" picture, LOL. I need a laugh now and then while I'm stressing.

So here is my current thought. I have 2 separate issues, I guess. One is the etch primed doors and the second issue is the rest of the parts that have been sandblasted.

I'm thinking that the body work areas on the doors will need to have the self-etch removed before the filler, then epoxy prime everything. The rest of the sandblasted parts can be epoxy primed at the same time and then I should be able to do filler on top of that. Once everything is as perfect as I can get it, the sealer primer goes on.

Does that make sense? I am seeing that there are a lot of "systems" and preferences of methods used and I'm hoping I can get something figured out before the rust sets in.

Julie

[grump]

Julie,
If your parts have been sandblasted you don't really need to use etch primer a good epoxy primer will do, it will also make a good sealer. Even in a low humidity area you need to get that bare metal covered. Clean metal starts rusting immediately, you might not notice it with the low humidity but it's there. Like everybody says metal work and bodywork are the key to any paint job. PATIENCE is the key. Look through the build section, a lot of the metal and body work is pretty well explained. Go to Autobody.com and go to their forum. It has sections for body work and for paint. Metalmeet has some really good stuff as has been mentioned. Eastwood and Summit Racing both have paint systems that seem to be pretty good. I've used Summit paint, it's made by Martin Senour. Either one is an economical way to go. Last but not least there's a lot of metal working and body work knowledge right here on SLICK60s. Just remember a little bit at a time and patience, lots of patience.
Grump

[Truckrat]

I agree with Grump. Also I know him and have seen his work.
Get those bare parts epoxy primed as soon as possible. Probably need
to wipe them down with some Metal prep before you spray them. As has
been mentioned, Southern Polyurethanes makes a nice epoxy primer that
you can get in several colors. I believe they are white, gray, and black.
We used it on my friends crewcab truck a couple of years ago. Nice stuff.
I will use it on mine when I get to that point. This stuff is not that hard to
do if you take your time with it. Do one piece at a time until you are happy
with it and then move on to the next piece. Brian (Iceman) is not far from
you. Hit him up if you get stuck. Good luck Julie. TR

[64 litl un]

OK.....

1. Since you have a shop full of blasted bare metal parts they have to be covered with something. If you see no possible way of getting that stuff in good primer very soon, head down to the local ACE,Lowes or Home Depot and by a gallon of Rustoleum Red Oxide rusty metal primer a couple of good brushes along with a gallon of mineral spirits and have at it. Now you can can store that stuff. RO is hell to get off but 2 years from now your truck will not be scrap metal.

2. If you want to immediately take advantage of your work here is some info. I'm going to try briefly to explain the current auto paint industry. Simply put it's not like it used to be.....it's almost as screwed up as the medical industry which incidentally is also Insurance driven. Imagine that!

Ok I'm off my soap box.

Auto Paint is big business and frankly they care little about the home restorer. The big money is in shops....insurance jobs. That's why John Q Ford waits 2years past the comletion date to get his 55 painted...meanwhile the shop does 800 cars while the resto/private job sits in the corner as a paint shelf......

Look at the paint manufactures like pharmaceutical companies. It's big business. Each manufacturer has teams of chemists to develop new products, throw in ease of use, tightening environmental factors and competition; you can see how big this business is. Each manufacture has affiliated dealers. These dealers sell to local supply shops as well as auto dealers and body shops. Each manufacture, their product reps and their affiliated shops are in business to sell their product.

They market these products as a system from metal etch to clear coat. While brand B primer may work with Brand A paint....the system is broken because the formula was compromised by using different manufactures products. Neither Brand A nor Brand B will stand behind or guarantee such work as the formula was not adhered too. This may not matter to the home restorer because they may not guarantee home jobs since they are not in a controlled atmosphere.

How does this relate to you....simple. Decide what type of paint you want. Decide what brand and "system" you want use. Stick with that brand from start to finish. You can go outside the formula and use other products but for simplicity sake stick to one brand and their formula. I think this is what is confusing you on the topic.

Paint for the Home guy......Urethanes are not like the old paints. While the old paints slowly poisoned the unmasked painters to a somewhat early grave....Urethane is more like the gas Chamber.....unprotected it will kill you pretty quickly. Some guys shoot this unmasked outside in their drive and still get sick. You must use a respirator with this stuff. A pollen mask or do rag will not do. Basically it's plastic in aerosol form. If you breath it you have plastic coated lungs.....not good. Urethanes is what the industry has gone too. It's good stuff for the shops as mentioned...not so much for the home guy. If you go that route get a respirator.
As said these are marketed as systems. For top coats there are single stage which is one step or a base clear which is two steps. Local shops can mix just about any factory color......

This has turned out to be not so brief but I'm gonna go with it.....

Types of paint.....

Nitrocellulose Lacquer. Nothing can compare to a car in black Nitro Lacquer.....nothing comes close. This stuff dates to the Coach building days and was applied by brush..then blocksanded. The manufactures used this until around or just after WWII. It's still available in a tamer non leaded form from folks like Bill Hirsch.http://www.hirschauto.com/GALLON-NITROCELLULOSE-LACQUER/productinfo/NITL-GAL/ Nitro as good as looks is prone to chipping cracking and fading.

Acrylic Lacquer. This paint comes into general use after WWII. GM used it through the 1960s. Shops used it.....all through till the 90s. When you hear folks talk about their custom paint job with 30 coats...this is the stuff. My old Hot Rod Paint Book claims you could paint a car with a Windex spay pump bottle with this stuff. It is the most forgiving of paint. Runs are easily sanded out out as well as bugs and orange peel. Lacquers as a general rule cannot be used over enamel unless a sealer is used or the enamel is well cured.
It's applied in many coats and requires color sanding. That's why it's so forgiving but it is labor intensive. Lacquer thinners are getting harder to find and this type paint is now a specialty item available from places like TCP Global. http://www.tcpglobal.com/Automotive-Paint/AL-Acrylic-Laquer/
Due too it's forgiving nature, Acrylic Lacquer was a good paint to use at the home shop but it is very labor intensive.

Acrylic Enamel. Enamel started to be used around WWII as well. Ford used enamels. In late 40s-60s Ford enamels were baked on.
Instead of Lacquer thinners Enamels use reducers usually in slow, medium and fast. One mixed it will harden. It goes on in a single stage. It has to be sprayed more carefully as runs and orange peel are not easy to correct. Although it can be color sanded it is difficult and traditionally the panel was re shot if screwed up. Enamel for the most part can be applied over Lacquer.
Still though it was still a good home shop paint although the painter needed more skill to apply correctly. http://www.tcpglobal.com/Automotive-Paint/AE-Acrylic-Enamel/

Acrylic Urethane.....I've already mentioned this and how it's used as a system. Again, Urethane requires a good respirator. Urethane behaves a lot like lacquer. It's easily repaired and color sanded that attribute is good for the home restorer but as said this stuff has to be respected.http://www.tcpglobal.com/Automotive-Paint/AU-Acrylic-Urethane/

Now you have to pick what system or type of paint you are going with. If you go urethane, maybe enamel you may be able to get the system from your local paint shop.

I have never done business with TCP Global but they do have "Kits" available. Primer kits.....http://www.tcpglobal.com/Automotive-Paint/Primer-Kits/

Good luck in whatever you choose.

[grump]

Very good information 64 litl un. The most important thing in your thread was to use a GOOD RESPIRATOR. I know first hand about respirators, when I first started painting we used a gauze mask to paint with and then wiped the paint off your face with thinner, DON"T DO THIS. I started working in a body shop in 1967, I've breathed a lot of fumes and overspray over the years and every time I paint I can tell it. I learned to do body work just so I could Paint. Do I regret it? NO! But I do wish we had better breathing protection back then. Get a good charcoal respirator and keep it in a sealed plastic bag when not in use, it has a limited exposed life of about,I think, 20 hours. Protect your self. Litl un you forgot synthol enamel which would give you a glass like finish even if it had alot of orange peel. This stuff flowed for 6 months. A paint job with this stuff was called a controlled run, at least you hoped it was controlled.LOL

[LM14]

No Synthol Enamel!!!!!!! Painted a car in '76 and you could still put a finger print in it by pushing hard a year later. Hate that stuff! Finally got hit while parked and totaled the car. The guys at the junk yard were pulling it off in strips for fun after we hauled it out to them. It was painted by a foreman at a body shop on his weekend off. He knew what he was doing, the paint just never reacted correctly and was a nightmare forever. Martin Senour found a problem with a couple of the colors in the mix pots and refunded all the cost of the paint. Big deal. Still had a shinny car that never dried.

Think I'm going to try the Eastwood stuff on my uni. Already using their epoxy primer and like the way it goes on and stays put. We'll see how it works s a system.

SPark

[ICEMAN6166]

since i have seen your garage and shop i can say you have a very nice clean place to paint
once you get that far there should be no shortage of dry days and low humidity to do it

im not a body man or painter, i can weld and do rust repairs decently but i never seem to do too well with dents and creases
my truck was done 15 yers ago with rustoleum spray cans, you saw that
will be getting redone whenever i get the uni bed on

bed has lots of little dings some from the inside and 1 bigger one that if i found that section would cut and replace
i have been working with some hammers and a piece of rail to try and straighten them up
wheelwells were the worst, lots of big dents, down to some smaller ones now but it took time and patience.

so anyway take all the comments posted and my vote of confidence i- think you can do it judging from what i saw- and have at it