460 Starter ?

[6166 Junkyard Dog]

last couple of days pulled several 460's out and what I have seen is on the starter I pulled one it had a shim, then another one had 2 shims and last one had 3, now what I am calling shims is a big round plate that the starter goes through with a bolt hole in each end,, I have never seen one but I just do not take a lot of 460'd apart ? either, I just wondering what I should put back or how do you know on installing 1 2 3 or 4 of them

[F7BIGJOB]

Tom, I worked on a ton of 460's up until about 12 years ago, all RVs some E350 mini buses, do not remember ever seeing shims, ever.

[6166 Junkyard Dog]

I will get a picture of them,, like I said it's as big as the hole for the starter, starter fits through this and your 2 starter bolts go through them, to me it seems like it moved the starter away from the bell housing any 's If one truck had 1 each but not in this case each motor had a different amount,,
I am finally getting to fix my crew cab with a 460,, Got a Gear Vendor set up months ago,, took it to trans shop to get it installed and come to find out gear vendors included a new center shaft so now the whole trans has to be torn down,, I just hope it will be worth it at the end

Now at the slick stock that Chris 's Trans had to be worked on in KC, does anybody remember a ring like that cause I was also thinking on the later 460's might have it

Now both had 2 different starters, one with the solenoid on top and the other like a typical Ford Starter with no solenoid on top

[Toyz]

http://www.patfromjersey.com/521stroker/521559.jpg
I have never had the need to use them, but have encountered them on various Ford engines. I don't recall seeing any reference to the shims in any Ford publication.
Paul

[6166 Junkyard Dog]

Paul cannot get on that site cause a warning came across saying that's a high risk site,, anyway Paul I might be calling it something wrong,, I know a shim is like we have seen on then GM Starters but these rings or whatever they are is what I am trying to figure out why 1,2, or 3

[slick4x4]

This is the pic he was showing

[6166 Junkyard Dog]

YES That is it,,, Now how many are you suppose to use or how to you determine that ?,, Thanks for posting that picture

[unibody madness]

Tom,
I do not have one on my motor.
They only make sense if they are used for different fly wheel applications.

[Toyz]

Tom, just a guess on my part, but I wonder if they might become useful on a rebuilt starter if it tended to engage too far due to changed dimensions during rebuild. I have a pretty wide assortment of factory manuals and have never seen a reference to shimming. I will take a look in the factory parts manual to see if they are listed. Otherwise, I have no understanding of the need, unless someone chose to leave the block spacer plate off
Paul

[ICEMAN6166]

300 and 302 starters are auto and manual, the nose cone is longer on the auto trans starter so it needs spacing if used in a manual bell housing,
did this once with a couple washers for spacers, worked for the life of the truck.

never heard of or saw any "factory" spacers on any earlier ford starters

[F7BIGJOB]

Just checked with one of our techs here, he has never seen any either, looked it up in NAPA there is no buyers application guide listed for that p/n. NAPA supplier has 139 on hand, NAPA warehouse has 629 in stock.--Someone must use them Checked my computer, we've never had any.

[6166 Junkyard Dog]

Still confused, all automatics I had here had different amounts of those pieces, the motor we are putting back in a was a 460 4 speed granny gear with none of them in,, I guess if we put the starter in and it drags then put one of them in.. All of these engines had the spacer plate in them between bell housing and the block...

[ras4434]

Can anyone pass this on to Number Dummy? He would have an official response.....just a thought.

[6166 Junkyard Dog]

Well if Napa has a number,, then I will just have to look in the Ford Parts Book to see if any info is in there on this,, maybe a flywheel issue to where you install a new flywheel it comes with these little pieces,, I know with enough minds here we will get to the bottom of this

[Toyz]

There is 3/8" difference between the 164 tooth flywheel starter applications and the 157 on the Windsors. The shim packs are usually 3/32 and thinner, so it would take four shims to make up for that wrong starter. The tooth clearance is also a little different between the two starter applications. I am thinking these thin shim assortments are designed as a temporary "Band-Aid" for worn out main bearings on manual transmission applications. I have no idea why they would be found on an automatic, unless in an attempt to utilize the incorrect starter. If the starter is actually for a Windsor application, it is easy to determine whether it is for a manual (with the exception of T-5 or Tremec applications) or automatic. The manual starter application will have the starter pinion gear noticeably recessed in the starter drive housing.
Paul

[LM14]

We had to use them on our dirt mod race cars. The problem was that some bells and some starters place the starter too deep in the ring gear and it won't kick like it should. We were also running a 1/4" thick aluminum mid plate and that added to the problem. We ran auto starters on manual bells (if I remember correctly) to make up 3/8" and the had to space it out a bit to line things up. There is a spec for depth of engagement in the books. Where we found it the most was rebuilt starters. Maybe they have been faced too many times? When we went to a brand new high dollar/high torque starter we never needed a spacer again.

[Toyz]

I suspect the rebuilds are the problem. I am trying to get my hands around how they would help with the thicker mid-plate. I am not aware of a spec for depth of engagement, only tooth clearance. I have encountered shim washers placed on the outboard cap screw of the old three bolt starter with the intent of tightening up the tooth clearance; not something I would condone. If you lay a "flexplate" next to a manual flywheel, the difference on the Windor engines is obvious.
Paul

[aarons428]

I had a 86 ford f250 that the starter sounded horrible when it engaged so I bought a rebuilt starter for it but when I pulled the old starter out it had shims on the top and bottom. I was like ford NEVER needs shims on there starters! so I left them out went to start it and it sounded wonderful until I put the c-6 in drive or reverse and then the flexplate would hit the starter!!!! put the shims back in and the starter would sound like crap but flexplate would not hit anymore. I guess the thrust bearing on the crank was shot so I just sold the truck.