Windsor vs. FE

[Mojave922]

Hey Rich, good point about the 351W as a starting point. I have no opposition to them. Guess I was impressed with how light a 302 could be made that I overlooked the 351. Would be nice indeed to have the extra grunt/torque of a 351's cubes. Would the extra 50 pounds of heft be far outweighed by the added torque and ponies?

[tjm73]

tjm73, I have a donor late 70s 302 in storage that appears to be a good core. I'll probably just rebuild it. I don't mind spending a few more bucks and getting some new aluminum cylinder heads. I like that aluminum heads and intake can shed 100 lbs off the front.

I also like the idea of picking up some cubes via 331 kit. Is there any special machining required? Local machinist encourages balancing on a rebuild, but aren't engines balanced from the factory?

Would a T5 not hold up well in a slick? I'd like a trans that would drive and shift well, not sloppy and truck-like as you described. Should I look for a W/C T5 or TKO? I did a search with "T5" on this site and didn't find any posts. May be user error.

Truck will be street only, not raced or see over 5,500 rpm and not thrashed. Just want a stout running ride with a lopey cam for street cred. Has 3.70 gears according to data plate but with 29" 255/70-15 BFG T/A it's kinda like having 3.00s in a passenger car, not very exciting. So, a change to 4.11 or so (and posi) may be in order too.

If you will do any towing at all, skip the T5. It's a car transmission. It can't live up to towing. If you will use the truck as a truck, you need a truck transmission or an automatic. T5's are not great shifting boxes. They are a bit mushy too in stock form. A shifter should be considered mandatory for any manual transmission to improve shift action in my opinion.

I wouldn't change the axle ratio until you decide on your transmission. Besides 3.70's would work great with any factory 5 speed and 29" tires. For example, you would turn about 2400 at 70 mph with the M5OD. I would stick with the 3.70's especially if they are already in the axle.

Aluminum heads and intake will shave weight of the engine, but not 100 pounds. More like 75 pounds. A good savings just the same. Any 302 is worth using for this kind of project. If you were building a big power engine, I would feel differently.
A 331 will pretty much drop into any 289/302 block depending on your rod choice. What kind of power do you want to make and how will the engine be used? Towing or just cruising around? Sounds like cruising around.

As to balancing the engine, yes it helps with longevity and smoother performance overall. Is it worth the extra expense, most likely not for your needs, but doing the stroker thing, I would do it.

Always balance if you change the crank, rods or pistons. If you are just doing a re-ring/re-bearing with an existing rotating assembly you don't need to re-balance.

You are pushing a lot of iron and there is no substitute for cubic inches when it comes to moving weight. Just remember, your truck is not a Mustang and weighs in at about 1.5 times the weight of a Mustang.

This isn't necessarily true. Depending on what year Mustang you are talking about, the Mustang might heavier then the Slick. The 2004 Mustang V8 curb weight was about 3400 pounds. A '65 short wheelbase Slick was about 3200 pounds. A loaded '65 Mustang with a V8 was about 3000 pounds. Of course the Slick in question can be with in a range of weights too.

Modern F-150's haven't had anything bigger than a 330 cubic in engine in 20 years (except a few 6.2 lariats and platinum's a couple years ago).

A 300 horse 350 ft-lb 302 is pretty easy to put together. And that is handily more powerful than the biggest factory V8 that ever came in a Slick.

[tjm73]

Hey Rich, good point about the 351W as a starting point. I have no opposition to them. Guess I was impressed with how light a 302 could be made that I overlooked the 351. Would be nice indeed to have the extra grunt/torque of a 351's cubes. Would the extra 50 pounds of heft be far outweighed by the added torque and ponies?

Before you spend any money, decide on how much power you want/need/can live with for the money spent to get it. Then move forward from there.

[Mojave922]

Hey Rich, good point about the 351W as a starting point. I have no opposition to them. Guess I was impressed with how light a 302 could be made that I overlooked the 351. Would be nice indeed to have the extra grunt/torque of a 351's cubes. Would the extra 50 pounds of heft be far outweighed by the added torque and ponies?

Before you spend any money, decide on how much power you want/need/can live with for the money spent to get it. Then move forward from there.

I've had mustangs in the past but never got to do performance upgrades like I wanted. Now I'm finally in a position to do so with this slick. Looking for best bang for the buck -- isn't everyone?

Torque is king for street fun, right? I'd like to have an engine with a flat torque curve yet still pull strong to 5500 or so. I won't be towing with this truck, just cruising.

[DV65CustomCab]

This is simplifying, but...
Torque: power down low in the RPM range. This is more suitable for the work trucks do.
HP: power up higher in the rev range. This is better for cars that you want to wind out and roar down the drag strip with.

With those thoughts in mind I always recommend chasing torque vs horsepower when it comes to trucks. With a cam, intake, 4v and exhaust improvements the 352 (or stroked to a 390) is not a bad way to go. A heavy engine, certainly. But you don't have to reinvent the wheel to install it. Bolt in and go.
There is the problem of transmissions, however. The FE doesn't bolt up to anything particularly good.

Comparing factory HP and torque figures in trucks through the years it is actually difficult to find impressive improvements. The wonderful little Windsor block is plentiful but suffered mightily through the emissions era. Only the most modern versions with fuel injection and 'enhancements' come close to what a Triton modular engine will put out. Had I not found a Lightning the available power in anything preceding the Triton engine trucks would have been a step down. The Lightning version of the Windsor 351 puts out numbers similar to the big, complicated, trouble-plagued 4.6/5.4 and was an easy decision to make. It does make good power for towing and tire spinning and can be coupled to a number of decent transmissions. Now that I have an AOD the appeal of a manual trans in a truck has pretty much disappeared. Trucks tend to have long levers, clunky throws, heavy clutches, etc. They aren't race cars. Automatics may actually be better, even for this guy who still buys manual trans cars.

The monster 460 is another option and is a reliable powerhouse but comes with the detriment of really horrible fuel mileage.

The Triton engines IMO simply aren't worth the effort unless you get into the Coyote versions. Spark plug ejections, exhaust stud/manifold issues, etc are a huge turn-off and modifying them is not inexpensive.

DDV's conclusion: I liked my FE and stuck with it in my truck because it made sense to me. However, in stock form and with the 3 speed it did have some serious limitations. If I were to do it over again and seek another Slick (and keep in mind it would be a toy and not a daily driver, so fuel economy means little to me vs some of you) I would open my options up to the 460 as well. A Windsor? Only if it were built to the idea of being in a truck. Dropping a stock one in from a Mustang or something isn't likely to give me the torque or power band that I would want in a truck.

[tjm73]

Sounds to me like you want a truck that falls someplace between a V8 Mustang street toy and a truck. Something to cruise around in. Go to a car show/cruise night. Go out to dinner. Drive to work once and a while, maybe all the time. Etc... But nothing you plan to race regularly and/or competitively. Just a fun rumbly toy. I can't count how many people try to suggest way more than a person really wants. Of course that's assuming the person is honest with themselves and the forum community about what they really want when soliciting ideas.

In that case a 302 (or 331) will hit all your goals. You already have a good foundation block to start with (that 70's 302 you mentioned). So no need to spend more time and money looking for a different engine. Here is what I would do and why. Take it or leave it or take some of it. It's your money and your truck, make it to make yourself happy. That's the number one thing. Build it for yourself, not for others. That said.....

I would have the block prepped. Bore it 0.030" over, align hone the mains, deck the block as little as needed to to make it flat and square to the crank. You could do studs in the mains, but good bolts are fine IMO. Now that the block is prepped you can install the rotating assembly. I would use a Scat 9000 Cast 3.25" stroke crank. Someone will undoubtedly disagree and say go forged, but the block will break before this cast crank will break. Scat's forged cranks can live past 500 hp. And they are noticeably cheaper than a forged version. Save a few bucks here to use elsewhere. On that crank I would hang a set of Scat 5.400" I-beam rods. Again someone will say use H-beams. And again Scat's I-beam rods are good to a little over 500 hp. And once again, save a few bucks here to use elsewhere. In addition, the I-beam rod is not as space filling as the H-beam and should (always check to be sure) clear the bottoms of the bores without clearancing. On the rods, you can use the pistons of your choice. Piston choice is like politics and religion. It can start all kinds of arguments. Personally I would use a good inexpensive hyperuetectic piston if you will never supercharge or spray nitrous. Some will say hypereutectic pistons are junk, but just about every car from the factory has them now. They allow tighter clearances and afford you better sealing and oil control. If that is not a piston you want to run for whatever reason, run forged pistons. It's really neither here nor there. Forged just costs a little more. It should go without saying, but balance this rotating assembly. Run a good high volume but standard pressure oil pump with an aftermarket HD oil pump shaft. Ford's OE oil pump shafts are just barely adequate. I've seen them twist up like a twizzler and break. Ford's 302 will make 60-65 psi with a stock pump on a real mechanical oil pressure gauge (my stock oil pump '90 Mustang GT did). Run a double roller timing chain. A stock 87-93 replacement chain and gears will suffice and they are cheap. Another place to save a few bucks to use elsewhere. If your 70's 302 can run a mechanical fuel pump, I would run that. It's dead simple and easily serviceable.

This brings us to the most important cluster of parts for a small block Ford. The heads, cam and intake, plus valve train. Nothing makes or breaks a smallblock Ford faster than the top end. Ford choked these engines off so bad from the factory it isn't even funny. A good set of heads can add 75+ horsepower with no other changes. The choices in aluminum cylinder heads will make your brain go soft and gooey. But all you need to do to know what works is look at the guys racing Mustangs. You will primarily two kinds of heads. Trickflow or Air Flow Research. You could read threads for days about which is better. But either will do right by your dollars. Just look for a set with 58cc combustion chambers and stud mount rocker provisions. I like the Trickflow 170cc Fast As Cast heads for a pure street engine. They balance flow and cost nicely. Above the heads I would run an Edelbrock Air Gap or an older Wieand Stealth when they were still made in the USA. I like the older Stealth. I have one squirreled away for a future undetermined project. Above that your choice of carb or if funds allow a self learning EFI. A Properly tuned a 750 works well. All the so-called calculators say a 650 will suffice. Choose which ever you like. I would spend a little extra for Comp Cams stainless steel roller rockers. They are pretty trick and barely cost more than aluminum rockers. They are stronger and lighter than the aluminum ones. This leaves the camshaft.

If you want to start an internet flame war, go to any Mustang forum and say any given camshaft is better than another. Sit back and watch the fireworks. Wow. The engine you say you have is a flat tappet cam block. There is nothing wrong with a flat tappet cam. There is some worry about lobe life with modern oil. If you run a flat tappet cam, run "racing oil" it is formulated like the oil of yesteryear. It's for the racing crowd. If you would like to run a roller cam, you can. But you will need link bar roller lifters. Easy to find, but cost a few hundred bucks. Still cheaper than tearing down and rebuilding an engine because a cam lobe is wiped out. For this engine I would run an "off the shelf" grind from Comp Cams. It's part number 35-349-8. The specs are 212/218 at 0.050", 114 LSA and 0.321"/0.321" lobe lift, 1500-5500 rpm operating range. They also make this cam on a 112 LSA. I doubt this engine would feel the difference. I could be wrong. Run either. If you search the cam number in YouTube you can hear it in a number of different engines. It sounds good. I would run it with 1.7:1 roller rockers. Shoot for 10:1 compression and enjoy.

This is just my opinion.

[Mojave922]

Sounds to me like you want a truck that falls someplace between a V8 Mustang street toy and a truck. Something to cruise around in. Go to a car show/cruise night. Go out to dinner. Drive to work once and a while, maybe all the time. Etc... But nothing you plan to race regularly and/or competitively. Just a fun rumbly toy. I can't count how many people try to suggest way more than a person really wants. Of course that's assuming the person is honest with themselves and the forum community about what they really want when soliciting ideas.

In that case a 302 (or 331) will hit all your goals. You already have a good foundation block to start with (that 70's 302 you mentioned). So no need to spend more time and money looking for a different engine. Here is what I would do and why. Take it or leave it or take some of it. It's your money and your truck, make it to make yourself happy. That's the number one thing. Build it for yourself, not for others. That said.....

I would have the block prepped. Bore it 0.030" over, align hone the mains, deck the block as little as needed to to make it flat and square to the crank. You could do studs in the mains, but good bolts are fine IMO. Now that the block is prepped you can install the rotating assembly. I would use a Scat 9000 Cast 3.25" stroke crank. Someone will undoubtedly disagree and say go forged, but the block will break before this cast crank will break. Scat's forged cranks can live past 500 hp. And they are noticeably cheaper than a forged version. Save a few bucks here to use elsewhere. On that crank I would hang a set of Scat 5.400" I-beam rods. Again someone will say use H-beams. And again Scat's I-beam rods are good to a little over 500 hp. And once again, save a few bucks here to use elsewhere. In addition, the I-beam rod is not as space filling as the H-beam and should (always check to be sure) clear the bottoms of the bores without clearancing. On the rods, you can use the pistons of your choice. Piston choice is like politics and religion. It can start all kinds of arguments. Personally I would use a good inexpensive hyperuetectic piston if you will never supercharge or spray nitrous. Some will say hypereutectic pistons are junk, but just about every car from the factory has them now. They allow tighter clearances and afford you better sealing and oil control. If that is not a piston you want to run for whatever reason, run forged pistons. It's really neither here nor there. Forged just costs a little more. It should go without saying, but balance this rotating assembly. Run a good high volume but standard pressure oil pump with an aftermarket HD oil pump shaft. Ford's OE oil pump shafts are just barely adequate. I've seen them twist up like a twizzler and break. Ford's 302 will make 60-65 psi with a stock pump on a real mechanical oil pressure gauge (my stock oil pump '90 Mustang GT did). Run a double roller timing chain. A stock 87-93 replacement chain and gears will suffice and they are cheap. Another place to save a few bucks to use elsewhere. If your 70's 302 can run a mechanical fuel pump, I would run that. It's dead simple and easily serviceable.

This brings us to the most important cluster of parts for a small block Ford. The heads, cam and intake, plus valve train. Nothing makes or breaks a smallblock Ford faster than the top end. Ford choked these engines off so bad from the factory it isn't even funny. A good set of heads can add 75+ horsepower with no other changes. The choices in aluminum cylinder heads will make your brain go soft and gooey. But all you need to do to know what works is look at the guys racing Mustangs. You will primarily two kinds of heads. Trickflow or Air Flow Research. You could read threads for days about which is better. But either will do right by your dollars. Just look for a set with 58cc combustion chambers and stud mount rocker provisions. I like the Trickflow 170cc Fast As Cast heads for a pure street engine. They balance flow and cost nicely. Above the heads I would run an Edelbrock Air Gap or an older Wieand Stealth when they were still made in the USA. I like the older Stealth. I have one squirreled away for a future undetermined project. Above that your choice of carb or if funds allow a self learning EFI. A Properly tuned a 750 works well. All the so-called calculators say a 650 will suffice. Choose which ever you like. I would spend a little extra for Comp Cams stainless steel roller rockers. They are pretty trick and barely cost more than aluminum rockers. They are stronger and lighter than the aluminum ones. This leaves the camshaft.

If you want to start an internet flame war, go to any Mustang forum and say any given camshaft is better than another. Sit back and watch the fireworks. Wow. The engine you say you have is a flat tappet cam block. There is nothing wrong with a flat tappet cam. There is some worry about lobe life with modern oil. If you run a flat tappet cam, run "racing oil" it is formulated like the oil of yesteryear. It's for the racing crowd. If you would like to run a roller cam, you can. But you will need link bar roller lifters. Easy to find, but cost a few hundred bucks. Still cheaper than tearing down and rebuilding an engine because a cam lobe is wiped out. For this engine I would run an "off the shelf" grind from Comp Cams. It's part number 35-349-8. The specs are 212/218 at 0.050", 114 LSA and 0.321"/0.321" lobe lift, <a href="tel:1500-5500">1500-5500</a> rpm operating range. They also make this cam on a 112 LSA. I doubt this engine would feel the difference. I could be wrong. Run either. If you search the cam number in YouTube you can hear it in a number of different engines. It sounds good. I would run it with 1.7:1 roller rockers. Shoot for 10:1 compression and enjoy.

This is just my opinion.

tjm73, what do you say to the idea of starting with a 351W instead of a 302? Are there any fitment problems with a Windsor?

[tjm73]

They're taller by about 1.3" and about 2" wider. They are way stronger. A 302 will split down the middle at around 500 hp. 351W's can live beyond 700 hp.

They really shine with good heads and it's so easy to make them into a 408, it's silly not too. The only issue with a 351W based engine is it's so easy to make big power that the cost can spiral upward pretty easy. You can make over 500 hp with pretty mild parts at 408 inches and then you need a substantial transmission to harness it and then you will need to go through a 9" because even a factory 31 spline is on the verge of not strong enough.

[64 f100]

Your choice is up to you but cost is a factor to be considered. I don't know what it would cost to build a stroker 302, or 351w. However, depending on usage and preference, it is ultimately your choice. You can spend a fortune on any engine. For an everyday driver, you really don't need to spend a fortune, but these kind of projects can get out of hand easily. I am now 3K into my grandsons 351w, Some of the costs were in extras I had not intended to do for reasons beyond my control. I spent and extra 300 on 4 bolt mains and machining to install the mains. Aluminum Ford motorsport high port heads. Did not realize these take a special intake gasket at a cost of 51$ for the gaskets. Of course non of the intakes I had matched the heads, but luckily I had an Edelbrock rpm spider intake that requires porting to match whatever heads it is bolted to. Only took me about 8 hours to port it. The engine has more potential than the cam I installed in it, as I did not balance the engine. The engine is mostly stock as far as crank , rods , pistons are concerned, although bored 30 over. The milder cam is so my grandson will live to see another day. I wasn't going for a high performance engine to start with. What I ran into, is cost of rebuilding the heads would have cost so much, that when I found these new high port heads for a cheap price, I jumped on those. That being said, a 351w with a mild cam and dual exhaust with 4 barrel intake was all that was needed to have more power than most people need. Transmission choice is also important, and if you want something to really hold up, there are really only a couple of stock type choices, C6 and top loader car 4 speed. Cheapest is most likely the C6 if your going to hammer it. AOD can be made to live and will get you better mileage, but suspect the build would e fairly costly to make it live under the hammer. You can live with the original 3 or 4 speeds, but suspect neither would be very satisfactory for what you want. T5 is a little light duty also. C4's can also be made to live .

[LM14]

Didn't have time to read all the posts right now. Had a '66 with a 352 and a T-5 out of a Mustang in it. Got 17mpg all day long. Used a Wilcap adapter to mate the T-5 to the 3 speed bell. Nothing fancy required. I pet a Hurst bolt on stick on it to put the shifter where I wanted it.

Spark