Went to the strip, need to rethink my fuel line.

BigTim · Post by **BigTim** » March 13, 2007, 10:58 pm

So a couple of weeks ago I decide to take the 65 out to the Drag Strip. Ran a 13.8 at 99 MPH, not to bad considering it still needs the carb jetted and other tuning. I was trying to wind it to 5700 and it sputtered at 5400, fuel pump or 5/16s line has to be the culprit there.

I wanted to run more than 2 passes, but those Chebbies kept breaking down on the track and slowing progress

Anyway I do feel I will get it into the mid to high 12s in the next few weeks, then I can juice it with the 150 shot of N2O.

With all of this in mind, how hard do you think it would be to cap the 5/16s line coming out of the top of the behind the seat tank and put a bung in the bottom to run a 3/8s or even a 1/2 inch line to the fuel pump.

I have thought a lot about doing a tank behind the axle but that seems to be a neat spot to hang the N2O bottle.

A friend of mine that was out there told me the next day that the adjusted air eqauted to running at 6000 feet above sea level. He was having a hard time running 12.5s in his 347 stroker 89 Mustang Notchback.

Hawkrod · Post by **Hawkrod** » March 13, 2007, 11:28 pm

Never run a fuel line off of the bottom of the tank, there is a reason the factory never did it. First, if it ever fatigued it would leak and second all of the crap gets drawn into the fuel line. If you want a bigger line, drill a new hole in the top and install a tube from the top down. Having the tube come out the top does not require any more load to flow fuel so there is no advantage to going out the bottom. You can also convert your fuel sender to incorporate the pickup or easiest of all, buy a 1970's tank, they are 3/8 lines already if it was a 460 truck (maybe they all were but all my trucks have been 460's). You can buy the tanks new or just go find a 1 ton 73-79 in the local auto wreckers! Hawkrod

Hoofbeat Racer · Post by **Hoofbeat Racer** » March 13, 2007, 11:46 pm

Hey, first things first

Congrats on the impressive first run. Nothing shabby at all with a high 13 run first time out. What rear end are you running behind that 460 and how did it hook up?

Myself, I would lose that tank in the cab and get it over the axle and 3/8 line should definately help. What kind of fuel pump are you using?

FORDBOYpete · Post by **FORDBOYpete** » March 14, 2007, 2:08 am

Tim,
That's respectable ET for 1st go round. But it sounds like your rear gear might be too High numbered. Out of Curiousity what are you running for a rear gear & what are your tire Diameters? How do you position your tailgate? Are you spinning or wheel hopping when you leave?

My ETs are lower and my TE is way higher than most for the Ets I run. It's the combo of higher TEs & avg lower ET that gets my wins. My index on a 12.60 is between 120 & 124 without headwind. You gotta remember I'm at sea level or within +60ft of it and the humidity here avgs 75%.

I can be 3 lengths behind at 660' & 2 lengths ahead in the traps without ever breaking out. Remember cutting your index = breaking out. But gaining MPH has no penalties to it. If I could run 12.60s at 180 I would not break out!

At 120 mph I will cover 176 feet per second, @ 180 it would = 264 FPS.
If a guy I run turns 100 mph & I turn 124, I cover 14.6 ft more per sec for every 10mph greater than he does going into the traps. That's roughly a 38 ft per second, or 2 length advantage for me going into the traps.

I do run a 3/8ths line & I don't have an in cab tank. I'm on a 79 chassis. It's rear mounted inframe with a 7Gal @ 4# psi. pusher type auxiliary pump.

If you run a fairly OEM engine using stock heads, intake & aren't running a windage tray, 5700 RPM is pushing it past it's limits by 500 RPM. They only flow well to 5200 using OEM Top End Components. Crankcase oil ropes over 5000. By 5500 pan is way low, crankshaft gets overloaded with weight & resistance it can't carry, you lose power & RPM will trail off.

Once I got rid of the notion of higher rpm & went for taking advantage of available torque instead, I got into the 12s . I've had better success ever since that lesson.

FBp

BigTim · Post by **BigTim** » March 14, 2007, 10:15 am

I thought Ford trucks went to a behind the axle tank in 73.

FBP I am running a 3.89 with a 26x10.5 ET street slick. Ran with the tailgate up. It pulled a best 60 foot of 1.911. That was foot braking and leaving at about 1800 RPM, I tried to flash the converter on the 1st run and spun, but I don't think I had the tires properly warmed up. I have done some experimenting since then and I can get ti to leave on the converter now, 2800 stall. The rear gears maybe toast, went for a drive Saturday and it howled worse the further I drove. Got it at the shop that set up the gears now. If so I have a set of 4.11s from a previous project.

The motor is .60 over 460 D1VE, HD stock rods that have the beam casting flash smoothed, and ARP rod bolts. Also have the D0OE-R heads with a bit of cleanup. Oil pan is a 9 quart truck pan with a windage tray.

Slick Fan · Post by **Slick Fan** » March 14, 2007, 12:12 pm

Are you sure it's not just your fuel pump running out of steam? I've had my 390 4-barrel over 6 grand plenty of times, with it's original 5/16 line.
Maybe the 460 will need that much more fuel, I dunno.

A track day sounds fun, I haven't done that in...well, forever!

FORDBOYpete · Post by **FORDBOYpete** » March 14, 2007, 1:25 pm

Tim,
Try a set of 3.70:1 or 3.55:1 cogs, and a tad taller tire, like maybe 28.5 or 29 if you can borrow them.
Or try a set of 31X10s with your 3.89s. You'll see a positive difference I'm talking about.
I think D1VE s are great street engines, but they do have the Hi R Flow problems with OEM top ends
that all 385s with OEM parts have. It's not a deal breaker 'cause you can gear into it to Maximize
Gobs of torque you're making. But if you chassis dyno it you'll see it all happens between 21-2200 and 4550 or so.
After 4800 stock stuff starts laying off fast. What I'm telling you is capitilaize on your torque potential.

If you're connected which it sounds like you are, borrow stuff before you buy it, BUT TRY IT.
Also stop thinking Blow Tie for Fords sake!
Blow Ties don't make torque they only make RPMs & noise, not Power and forward progress.

A 385 series pulls like a catepillar diesel, Low & Hard heavy Hitter. Use that to your advantage.

I realize this is a radical strategic departure & tactic, but if you want your competitors to respect you alot & get
a little Miffed because they cannot beat you try what I suggest, it works for me and I'm only a 7.5L = 460.

FBp

Hawkrod · Post by **Hawkrod** » March 14, 2007, 3:50 pm

BigTim wrote:I thought Ford trucks went to a behind the axle tank in 73.

snip.

They did in trucks with a pickup bed except for CrewCabs and F250 or F350 4X4's and cab chassis came standard with in cab tanks and under body tanks were an option. This means flatbeads, tow trucks, high boys etc... all have in cab tanks. They are pretty common because those F350 flatbeds don't have any value anymore! I already had one in my 76 CrewCab but I just put one in my 61 from an F350. They bolt in with no mods except a bigger fuel line. Hawkrod

BigTim · Post by **BigTim** » March 14, 2007, 5:33 pm

FBP but the heads are not the lower RPM Dove, I have the 70 429 SCJ heads. I am thinking powerband of 2500 to 6000. I agree that the 3.70 should work better with the 26" tires, my daily driver tires are 29" so I may go back to 3.70s.

Lets talk cam and intake. The cam I am running is a solid, would go hydraulic but I feel we have to much seat pressure for that. So currently I am running a 248/254 @.050 and .605 lift, and a Weiand Stealth. I was running a 232/237 @.050 and .557 with a moderate rise dual plane. The motor felt lazy with the MDP and .557 cam. The Stealth and .605 really woke it up, but it did hurt the off idle to 2200-2400 a bit.

As for intakes I can also get my hands on a Victor Jr. or a Offy Port-O Sonic, but then I am sure it would kill it up to 2800-3200, so I feel the Stealth is the ticket. May need to try some different spacers.

I just think with the SCJ heads I need to run up to 6000 to make them worth it, otherwise I just need to port a set of D8s.

Am I all wet or thinking somewhat clear?

Fuel pump, I think the mechanical I have is junk, probably need to go with a good Carter. I did put a Holley Red pump as a pusher, it helped, so I know the mechanical pump is crap.

Just a thought here, would a high performance section on this board go over well?

FORDBOYpete · Post by **FORDBOYpete** » March 14, 2007, 6:18 pm

We could poll it and see ?
But I'm thinkin' it'd need to be engine family specific.
Some folks maintain a notion certain " Engines" are the catzazz whilst others are junque. You know how it goes there are Y Block people and FE Folks and Windsor Fans then 385ers like us & 351M/400 diehhards, They all have valid views but some rag on others and so forth.
What cast # are your heads Tim?
I put on D2s but I caught a lot of flack so I went back to the D1VEs I have not been to the strip this year. I don't know what the D2s would've run like, altho everybody says they'd run BAD.
I'm not fond of solid lifter set ups, but with what you have I think you might be better off with some of the HiFlow Aftermarket heads. Twisted wedges honk but are pricey. I know a guy with a pair of Alan Rootes that get him into the 7K range which gives me chills. That's a lot of OEM Crankshaft ro be rolling iver that fast IMHO.

Opps gotta go. Back Later

Fbp

BigTim · Post by **BigTim** » March 14, 2007, 6:26 pm

The heads are D0OE-R, 429 SCJ heads.

7000 is way beyond what I would wind mine, 6300 is max with the rods I am running. Don't want to make an air cooled block ya know.

FORDMANLCRACKEL · Post by **FORDMANLCRACKEL** » March 14, 2007, 8:22 pm

here's a site i ran across that has a lot of info on the 460 from daily driver to full out race.

http://460ford.com/index.php

Might help

Lonnie

Polcat · Post by **Polcat** » March 15, 2007, 10:01 am

Got a couple suggestion. I would check your timing to make sure it is advancing to what the engine needs. Also not sure what carburator your running but check your linkage. A guy from another forum had a similar problem and found his carburator throttle plates were not opening all the way. I ran out of my tank behind the seat on my first set up and did not have alot of problems with it but did have a high flow mechanical pump at the time. I am currently running a fuel cell behind the rear axle with 1/2 inch line feeding the electric fuel pump. and running a 3/8 solid aluminum line up to the engine from their. I have not had any issues so far. I am runing it at 8-9 psi. Sounds like you got a good running set up. Just keep tweaking you will get thier. I broke a axle or something in my rear end last weekend. Just have not pulled it apart to see what yet??Another thing is check your float bowl hieght. I usually raise my front one before I got race to help keep the carb. feed with fuel.

FORDBOYpete · Post by **FORDBOYpete** » March 15, 2007, 10:52 am

Thanks Lonnie.
Tim you been to the site Lonnie posted the link for yet?
I signed up over there. Looks like a lot of good tech stuff I've been lacking access to.

Learned a few things about a MAFS/TP-EFI for the 385 engines & I'm convinced it's the way to go.
MPG & Blistering performance on demand. . . . Wow.

FBp

BigTim · Post by **BigTim** » March 15, 2007, 1:08 pm

Yeah I have been over there. A lot of good info, but it just does not feel like home.

Hoofbeat Racer · Post by **Hoofbeat Racer** » March 15, 2007, 10:14 pm

I have been over there too. It is an overload of info. These guys are pretty serious. I wish that I had more time to read all that is there. I agree with you though Tim, it doesn't feel like home there.

At least not like this place. Still good to know where to find 460 Q & A, although we do have our local resource in Pete

FORDMANLCRACKEL · Post by **FORDMANLCRACKEL** » March 15, 2007, 10:54 pm

Yep i know what you're saying about home, ours is a 61-66 truck home with a lot of diferent motors. There's is one motor in all kinds of bodies ya cant see there specialty when the hood is down. you can see our specialty with hood up or down. It is a good site for the 460 any way you look at it.

Lonnie

pashtrd · Post by **pashtrd** » March 16, 2007, 8:42 pm

I have a question,
Why does everyone recommend 3/8" fuel line? Why not 1/2"
From what i have been told, the pressure drop is minimal from 3/8 to 1/2" and there is more potential for more HP. I say if you are going to do it do it once.
I think i was told 3/8 can handle up to 400 hp, and 1/2 should be used on 350 -400 hp and up. These came from my local speed shop, where i bought 1/2" line for my car.

Gator · Post by **Gator** » March 17, 2007, 10:27 am

for your carb tuning, the best way i have found is using a wideband air fuel sensor and guage, autometer makes about the best, its called the UEGO A/F meter. its an all in one system. it will tell you if your lean or rich or any in between. you can barely turn an air screw on your carb and never hear a sound difference by ear, but the guage will show a difference. If you do buy a A/F meter make sure it is wideband only because the singlebands are absolutely junk, that dont properly read a/f ratio. the autometers go from 260 to 300 bucks, but are a great tuning tool and an insurance to protect your motor especially if you use nitrous.

and your rite about your fuel line it is too small. an 8an would do the trick. another option would be install a fuel cell under or in your bed, they make fuel cells with fuel senders in them for the street. any where from 12 to 20gal. take a look at summit or jegs.

i have a friend with a 1977 f100 race truck, he has a built 460, stroked to 545ci, jhon kase ported heads, all forged, every bolt on. makin 698hp at the wheels. he is running all 10an line with a high flow holley fuel pump with no problems.

Comet · Post by **Comet** » March 17, 2007, 2:49 pm

I really have nothing to add to this thread, but just wanted to say this is one of the best threads I've read on this site. Very cool stuff guys, learning lots here!

Gator, I do have a question about the wideband air fuel sensor from Autometer. You got a part no? I was looking on Autometer's website and couldn't find it. Not even under data acquisition tab.