351 Cleveland or Windsor ??

Astrowing · Post by **Astrowing** » March 7, 2011, 10:58 am

I really liked the 351C in my Cougars. It had a lot of power even with the 2V compared to TransAms and Mustangs with 302's. Built-in bypass hose rather than the external elbow is an advantage. The 351M and 400 engines are very similar and I'm sure were much more common. Would they not be useable as parts?

jakdad · Post by **jakdad** » March 7, 2011, 11:06 am

I like both engines. I prefer the Cleveland with the Aussie heads. A natural go fast engine! Loves gas. When I build an engine like this, gas is not a consideration.

Gary Seymour · Post by **Gary Seymour** » March 7, 2011, 12:25 pm

The Cleveland is a great engine. The in-block t-stat housing (no by-pass hose as mentioned above) + no water through the intake manifold, the great big valves - even 2V 351C heads have bigger intakes than the "famous" 2.02 Cheeeebies.

4V Clevelands would not be a good choice unless you have a real low gear in the rear end and a manual trans. 4V heads flow almost too good to be of use on the street.

I am building a 2V 351C for my truck, but I had this engine before I had the truck. Parts selection is VERY limited - pistons, cams, intakes - not much to choose from.

If I was shopping for an engine to swap into a slick, I would probably go with the 351W over a 351C. It would be harder to find a Cleveland.

frdnut · Post by **frdnut** » March 7, 2011, 1:12 pm

I would go with the windsor all the way..If you are after big power just replace the cylinder heads with aftermarket ones that flow better and all of the clevelands advantages over the windsor are gone..The windsor is a stronger block and like was stated much easier and cheaper to find....I had a 1972 2V low compression cleveland in my old 66 slick..Performance was disappointing to say the least..

Astrowing · Post by **Astrowing** » March 7, 2011, 3:06 pm

The Boss 302 and Boss 351 are Windsor Blocks with Cleveland Heads I believe.

jakdad · Post by **jakdad** » March 7, 2011, 5:01 pm

Astrowing wrote:The Boss 302 and Boss 351 are Windsor Blocks with Cleveland Heads I believe.

Except for the water transfer ports. A good machine shop can fix that.

DirtyHerri · Post by **DirtyHerri** » March 7, 2011, 6:22 pm

Windsor stroker! If money isn't and issue, I would go for 408 cubes with some AFR heads. Easy 500HP and a bunch of torque.

cooter · Post by **cooter** » March 7, 2011, 7:03 pm

or you could just step up to the plate and go 429/460, cheap hp. But the windsor is still a great choice

jamesdfo · Post by **jamesdfo** » March 7, 2011, 8:37 pm

Boss 302 block is still essentially a windsor block, but it is much more robust, has screw in frost plugs, 4 bolt mains and with all the extra material added to the right places for strength, it weighs a few pounds more than a standard 289/302 block (including the 271 horse 289 "K" motor). Boss 302 also had a steel crank.....
Boss 351 is still a 351C, but has screw in studs and few other trinkets the other 351C's don't have....

James

Astrowing wrote:The Boss 302 and Boss 351 are Windsor Blocks with Cleveland Heads I believe.

jamesdfo · Post by **jamesdfo** » March 7, 2011, 8:40 pm

If you have deep pockets, with an aftermarket block, stroker crank, etc you can now build a 498 C.I. windsor:shock:

.......and if you use an aluminum block, it will weigh nothing and make GOBS of torque

James

DirtyHerri wrote:Windsor stroker! If money isn't and issue, I would go for 408 cubes with some AFR heads. Easy 500HP and a bunch of torque.

jamesdfo · Post by **jamesdfo** » March 7, 2011, 8:45 pm

All the above replies have merit, but we (ok, me:) have gone on a tangent....if you are building a truck to take out infrequently and put in the local park & sit, a Cleavland will work, people will ooh and ahhh.....and for the few miles it sees the milage and drivability won't be a big deal.......but if you are talking about an engine to use in a DAILY DRIVER.......then we are back to the windsor.......and they can be built relatively stock, with a mild cam, headers and a holley, will work well, and not break the bank to build or drive......or you can keep going, add some heads and a hyd roller, etc.....the possibilities are limited only by the depth of your pockets.....

James

frdnut · Post by **frdnut** » March 7, 2011, 9:03 pm

jamesdfo wrote:All the above replies have merit, but we (ok, me:) have gone on a tangent....if you are building a truck to take out infrequently and put in the local park & sit, a Cleavland will work, people will ooh and ahhh.....and for the few miles it sees the milage and drivability won't be a big deal.......but if you are talking about an engine to use in a DAILY DRIVER.......then we are back to the windsor.......and they can be built relatively stock, with a mild cam, headers and a holley, will work well, and not break the bank to build or drive......or you can keep going, add some heads and a hyd roller, etc.....the possibilities are limited only by the depth of your pockets.....

James

I totally agree..

Haus · Post by **Haus** » March 8, 2011, 11:12 pm

frdnut wrote:
jamesdfo wrote:All the above replies have merit, but we (ok, me:) have gone on a tangent....if you are building a truck to take out infrequently and put in the local park & sit, a Cleavland will work, people will ooh and ahhh.....and for the few miles it sees the milage and drivability won't be a big deal.......but if you are talking about an engine to use in a DAILY DRIVER.......then we are back to the windsor.......and they can be built relatively stock, with a mild cam, headers and a holley, will work well, and not break the bank to build or drive......or you can keep going, add some heads and a hyd roller, etc.....the possibilities are limited only by the depth of your pockets.....

James
I totally agree..

+2 I don't have many miles at all on my cleveland but enough to know I won't be driving cross country in it. Even at the next slick stock it will be trailered in to save on gas. I can drive my 4X4 and pull my slick and still get better mileage

. I discussed the pros and cons with several folks before putting the cleveland in my truck. Mine will see limited miles. Also as stated the power band is in the upper RPM's. Thats why I went ahead with a 2500 stall converter. With the 4.11 gears and a C4 my RPMs were around 3000+ at 55 and would jump off the line, ok stop light or stop sign. I decided to bring it down and put 3.50 gears in the back. Still brakes both tires loose with no effort but cruising speed is much better at highway speeds.

CooGAR · Post by **CooGAR** » March 9, 2011, 12:28 pm

Well.... just found out yesterday my Cleveland's berings are shot and it's getting a total rebuild.

ADVICE!!

If the cylinders have not been bored out already, I'll do that. What other things should I do to give me more low end torque. Not looking to break the bank, but while it's apart I may as well do a few things. This is not a daily driver, just a weekend toy.

Plus - I live in Houston.....where gas is about $1.39/gal.

jamesdfo · Post by **jamesdfo** » March 9, 2011, 1:01 pm

1) If you are going to have it bored, only overbore the minimum required, as Cleavelands are famous for thin cyllinder walls. (ie: don't bore it 0.030" over if it will clean up at 0.010")

2) If the shop you take it to does not have (or intend to use) torque plates....FIND A SHOP THAT DOES (and if you intend to use head studs rather than head bolts, then torque plates should be secured using like fasteners.)

3) Camshaft selection is a big part of torque curve, so is intake manifold and carb size. MOST choose too big of a carb.....
...decide what your primary operating RPM range will be and select components that are intended for this range.
(example: if you never rev the thing over 4500, WTF would you use a 750DP carb??)

....and these port plates from MPG Head Service alledgedly increase torque....

http://www.mpgheads.com/port_plates_a.php

EDIT:Almost forgot to mention, these days it is very common to eat the lobes off a camshaft during breakin....so use the cam manufacturers recommended assembly lube on lobes, and make sure you use a "break in oil" which has all the needed additives that Big Brother has decided our every day motor oil should no longer have....

James

sully5 · Post by **sully5** » March 9, 2011, 4:25 pm

I will weigh in with my limited experience in the world of dualing 351's.

I have driven cars with both engines over the years. In dead-stock form, I have found the 351C to be more powerful, hands down. If I didn't know that both engines had the same displacement, I wouldn't believe it to be true.

Of course, in dead-stock form the difference is in breathing, AKA the heads. The stock cleveland head is infinitely better than *most* stock windsor heads. As stated earlier, the cleveland 4V heads are really too good for street use as they have humongous ports and BBC size valves.

In windsor based motors I put my maximum effort into improving the breathing. Most SBF heads have PUNY ports. Of course the aftermarket has taken that problem pretty much off the table if you're willing to spend the coin for new heads.

While the stock cleveland may out-power the windsor, the windsor will catch up while the cleveland is sitting at the gas pump. I am currently building my daughter's truck to make adequate V8 power but get max gas mileage. So it's a stock 302 with early non-thermactor heads, Eddie performer, small Holley carb, AOD, and 2.75 gears.

With gas prices, a mild 351W will build cheaper AND save money at the pump. The immediate build savings and the annual gas savings will be pretty dramatic. Also I can find buildable windsors on craigslist all day and buy them for a song. I have a couple sitting under my work bench at home for some future projects.

jamesdfo · Post by **jamesdfo** » March 9, 2011, 5:32 pm

Sully: From what I've been told, as far as production heads go, the ones you want are actually the GT40 heads that came on the 5.0 powered Explorers. They flow the most of the SBF (windsor) heads....and the 245HP rating of the Explorer demonstrats that:).....if you can find a "roller motor" (mustang, lincoln LSC, Thunderbird, cougar), it's a good starting point, as the hyd rollers use more aggressive lift, and have less parasitic loss, all good for more power & less fuel consumption......

James

sully5 · Post by **sully5** » March 9, 2011, 5:43 pm

That's why I said *most* stock windsor heads. But if I were a betting man, I'd say that the cleveland 2V heads outflow even the GT40 windsor heads. I wouldn't be shocked to lose that bet, but I would be mildly surprised. The 4V heads are way beyond the ballpark.

cosmo · Post by **cosmo** » March 9, 2011, 6:08 pm

I swear one of my old Ford engine books says something about how well the stock 4V heads flowed...the advice sounded something like : "Porting or even polishing Cleveland heads is actually discouraged, dont touch them, leave them alone....you know what..dont even look at em!"
Or something to that effect

now thats damn cool

sully5 · Post by **sully5** » March 9, 2011, 6:45 pm

Yeah, a "clevor" engine with 4V heads has 10K RPM potential.

IIRC, the 4V heads were designed with NASCAR in mind.

351 Cleveland or Windsor ??

one cool note about Clevelands