FordBoyPete, response to your post (edited)

[Hawkrod]

snip

Also, FE Engines came out before Edsels were produced when they appeared as the 332CID FE, August of 1957 in Fairlane & some of the Mercury platforms so why would FoMoCo call it an Ford Edsel engine?

FBp

That is actually very easy to answer and you are mistaken. The first FE engines put into production cars were all Edsels. The production of Edsels actually started 6+ weeks before Ford in 1957 so that they could have them in dealerships for the grand release on September 4th. Production of actual customer cars started in June of 57 but Ford didn't start until the end of July/early August (I can't pin the date down before 8/4 but I am sure some cars had to have been produced before that just to verify plant capabilities). The very first 58 Edsels were actually built in April of 1957 well in advance of any 58 ford product. The first production 58 Edsel engines were actually produced in February 1957. And as a matter of trivia, the 25 millionth V8 Ford engine was built February 15th 1957 and it was an Edsel engine! The engine design was primarily paid for by the Edsel Motor company and all expenses for tooling for the engine were charged out to Edsel. One of the many reasons for the failure of the company is they started so deep in the red on paper that there was no hope of turning a profit in the first few years unless they sold millions of cars. They had actually hoped to sell about 200,000 the first year but only ended up selling 63,110. The FE engine was designed specifically for the Edsel Ranger and Pacer along with the Ford Fairlane as these were the three products that Ford wanted a new upscale engine for. As I am sure you can see, the FE engine was definitely used in Edsels before Fords and was being built well in advance of any 58 Ford product. Hope this explains it well enough and all of this information is readily available at the Detroit Public Library in the AMA collection and the research library in Dearborn from original Ford documents. Hawkrod

[Slick Fan]

Long live the FE!

[FORDBOYpete]

This may be the wrong approach, I don't want to get in an argument with you BUT. . . .

1958 Rangers came with a 292 Y block which is all Ford

1958 Pacers came with 361 which is what became Mecurys' Turnpike cruiser V8 & the Lincoln 430 later on.

1958 Corsairs came with 411CID V8 which is the Lincoln that became the 462 in the mid 60s

Edsels 1st FE showed up in 1959 Pacers. It was same 332 CID FE that Dearborn put in 1958 Fairlanes. It was proto typed in late 1956.

I Had a 58 Del Rio with one in it and I got it the 1st week in Sept of 57.

I agree FoMoCo was upside down in Bob McNamaras Nightmare creation.

But we are concerned with FE engines of which several were running around Dearborns proving grounds in 57 Fairlane 300 sedans in October/November 1956.
Those same 57 Ford Fairlane 300 sedans then ran & tested in Az after Christmas 1956. They all had 332CID, 2V, FE prototypes in them & that transitional 3spd A/T between F/Matic & COM that was only available in 1958.

[Hawkrod]

I am not sure where you got your info Pete, but now I see how you got the wrong idea about the engines. The 361 is an FE and is not and never was used or related to the egines used in the Mercury. In 1958 edsel only used two different engines, The Corsair and Citation used the E475 engine which was an MEL 410 cubic inch engine, The big brother to Mercury's 383 and baby brother to the 430 which became the 462. The Ranger and Pacer were available with on the E400 which was a 361 cubic inch big brother to Fords 352. The 292 was not available in 58 edsel although in 59 it became the "Ranger" engine as the line was reduced due to the previous years failure and the E475 was no longer available and Edsel no longer manufactured two different body's (a bit of trivia for those that do not know, the Ranger and Pacer (and Bermuda wagon) were based on a Ford chassis and were physially smaller while the Citation and Corsair were built on Mercury chassis and were actually physically larger cars. The fender or grille from a Pacer look identical to one from a Citation but will not swap because the Citation parts are longer, wider, and bigger. Many Edsel newbs make this mistake when buying parts!). I was not trying to get into a pissing match or anything Pete, just trying to correct misinformation. It is obvious you are not familiar with these cars and the mistakes you made are common ones. The important thing is to correct the misinformation and set the record straight. Hawkrod

FE engines: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_FE_engine


Here is a section from the 58 Edsel club page:

1958 Engines
Edsel engines were assembled in Cleveland, OH, Dearborn, MI and Wayne, MI.



E-400 V8

Standard for Ranger, Pacer, Villager, Bermuda, Roundup
361 cid (5.911 litre)
303 hp @4600 rpm
400 ft-lb Torque @2900 rpm
10.5:1 Compression Ratio
4.0469 x 3.500 Bore/Stroke
4-bbl Holley carburetor
Pushrod overhead cam
Features an angle-wedge combustion chamber
(The block is 100 degrees from the cylinder head instead of 90 degrees)
Crankshaft: 5 main bearings, end thrust taken by #3
Firing order: 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
Cylinder numbering (front-to-rear): Right 1-2-3-4 Left 5-6-7-8
18mm Champion spark plugs, 0.34 gap
Cam Angle (degrees): 26 - 28.5
Breaker Point Arm Spring tension (ounces): 17-20
Centrifugal Spark Advance - Start (degrees): 1 @400 rpm
Centrifugal Spark Advance - Full (degrees): 10.5 @2000 rpm
Vacuum Spark Advance - Start (inches of vacuum): 1
Vacuum Spark Advance - Full (inches of vacuum): 14
Ignition Timing with standard transmission: 3 deg BTDC
Ignition Timing with automatic transmission: 6 deg BTDC
Idle speed in Neutral (rpm): 475- 500
Minimum compression pressure at cranking speed (lbs): 180
Oil Pressure (lbs): 45 - 50
Valve Angle - Intake (degrees): 30
Valve Angle - Exhaust (degrees): 45
Valve Spring height - installed (inches): 1-53/64
Valve Spring pressure (lbs @ inches): 250 @ 1-25/64
Valve Lift (inches): 0.399
Valve Stem clearance - Intake (inches): 0.001 - 0.0025
Valve Stem clearance - Exhaust (inches): 0.003 - 0.004
Valve Stem diameter - Intake (inches): 0.3715
Valve Stem diameter - Exhaust (inches): 0.3697


Piston Wrist Pin diameter (inches): 0.975
Rod Bearing Shaft diameter (inches): 2.4380-2.4388
Rod Bearing clearance (inches): 0.0006-0.0024
Main Bearing Shaft diameter (inches): 2.7484-2.7492
Main Bearing clearance (inches): 0.0006-0.0024
Shaft End Play (inches): 0.002-0.006

Engine Bolt Torquing (Always use clean, lubricated threads for accuracy)
Spark plug (ft-lbs): 15-20
Cylinder Head (ft-lbs): 75
Intake & Exhaust Manifolds (ft-lbs): 23-38
Rocker Arm Shaft bracket (ft-lbs): 45-50
Valve Cover (ft-lbs): 2-2.5
Connecting Rod Cap (ft-lbs): 45-50
Main Bearing Cap (ft-lbs): 95-105
Flywheel to Crankshaft (ft-lbs): 75-85
Vibration Damper or Pulley (ft-lbs): 130-145
Average miles per gallon: 15.2



Engine Colors
Yellow (1972 GM Color code 52, Dupli-Color code DS-GM-167):
Block, heads, water pump, intake manifold, oil filler tube, oil pan
Off-White (Mix four parts Derusto Gloss White #874/D-23 and one part Derusto Gloss Almond #884/D-34): Air Filter cover, valve covers
Reddish-Orange: E-400 Stenciled on embossed letters
Gloss Black: Brackets, generator, fan, pulley, starter motor, flywheel cover, inner fender aprons, radiator
Semi-gloss Black: Frame, front suspension, core support, etc.
Natural: Transmission bell housing, distributor, exhaust manifolds, fender attaching bolts




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



E-475 V8

Standard for Citation & Corsair
When Ford Motor Company celebrated their 25 millionth V8 engine, it was an E-475!

410 cid (6.7 litre)
345 hp @4600 rpm
475 ft-lb Torque @2600 rpm
10.5:1 Compression Ratio
4.2031 x 3.703 Bore/Stroke
4-bbl Holley carburetor
Pushrod overhead cam
Features a cylindrical-wedge combustion chamber
(The block is at 90 degrees, while the head contains an angled combustion area)
Crankshaft: 5 main bearings, end thrust taken by #3
Firing order: 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
Cylinder numbering (front-to-rear): Right 1-2-3-4 Left 5-6-7-8
18mm Champion spark plugs, 0.34 gap
Distributor Point gap (inches): 0.015
Distributor Rotation: Counter-clockwise
Cam Angle (degrees): 26 - 28.5
Breaker Point Arm Spring tension (ounces): 17-20
Centrifugal Spark Advance - Start (degrees): 1 @400 rpm
Centrifugal Spark Advance - Full (degrees): 10.5 @2000 rpm
Vacuum Spark Advance - Start (inches of vacuum): 1
Vacuum Spark Advance - Full (inches of vacuum): 14
Ignition Timing with standard transmission: 3 deg BTDC
Ignition Timing with automatic transmission: 6 deg BTDC
Idle speed in Neutral (rpm): 475- 500
Minimum compression pressure at cranking speed (lbs): 200
Oil Pressure (lbs): 45 - 50
Valve Angle - Intake (degrees): 30
Valve Angle - Exhaust (degrees): 45
Valve Spring height - installed (inches): 1-53/64
Valve Spring pressure (lbs @ inches): 185 @ 1-27/64
Valve Lift (inches): 0.441
Valve Stem clearance - Intake (inches): 0.001 - 0.0025
Valve Stem clearance - Exhaust (inches): 0.003 - 0.004
Valve Stem diameter - Intake (inches): 0.3715
Valve Stem diameter - Exhaust (inches): 0.3697
Piston Wrist Pin diameter (inches): 0.975
Rod Bearing Shaft diameter (inches): 2.5992-2.6000
Rod Bearing clearance (inches): 0.0007-0.0025
Main Bearing Shaft diameter (inches): 2.8994-2.9002
Main Bearing clearance (inches): 0.0008-0.0026
Shaft End Play (inches): 0.004-0.008

Engine Bolt Torquing (Always use clean, lubricated threads for accuracy)
Spark plug (ft-lbs): 15-20
Cylinder Head (ft-lbs): 90
Intake & Exhaust Manifolds (ft-lbs): 23-38
Rocker Arm Shaft bracket (ft-lbs): 45-50
Valve Cover (ft-lbs): 2-2.5
Connecting Rod Cap (ft-lbs): 45-50
Main Bearing Cap (ft-lbs): 95-105
Flywheel to Crankshaft (ft-lbs): 75-85
Vibration Damper or Pulley (ft-lbs): 130-145



Engine Colors
Green (similar to 1978 Porsche "Fern Green" - DuPont code 273, Porsche code 45639AH):
Block, heads, water pump, intake manifold, oil filler tube, oil pan
Off-White (Mix four parts Derusto Gloss White #874/D-23 and one part Derusto Gloss Almond #884/D-34): Air filter cover, valve covers
Reddish-Orange: E-475 Stenciled on embossed letters
Gloss Black: Brackets, generator, fan, pulley, starter motor, flywheel cover, inner fender aprons, radiator
Semi-gloss Black: Frame, front suspension, core support, etc.
Natural: Transmission bell housing, distributor, exhaust manifolds, fender attaching bolts

[jeepbut]

OK, here's the real story on fe's. There was a guy with a hotdog cart that worked outside the Ford building in 1955. One day he says to Mr Ford (don't know which one) "Hey buddy, name an engine after me and I will give you a free hotdog". So Mr. Ford (not sure which one) was hungry and had just been mugged by the pretzel vendor and had no money, so he say's OK by me, let's eat! The hotdog vendor is the now world famous Frank Edwards of Frank Edwards Hotdogs Worldwide Consolidated. I was only authorized 15 minutes ago by the Edwards family trust to release this little known information. Please direct any questions to 1-800-HOTDOG. Thanks, Jeep Edwards. ( I may have lied)

[jkimbrel65]

[FORDMANLCRACKEL]

And in return Mr. Edwards called his hot dog a Frankford.

Lonnie

[FORDBOYpete]

Well it is all very confusing 50 years after the fact. That is one reason I went to the 385 series which I have been involved with since a 73 Mark III I had showed me the potential they have. Then 7 years later I put one in a 65 F100 drag truck I tried I've had a rewarding relationship with them. I put my 1st one in my 66 Slick in 1985. It's only gotten better since then. Big power moderate RPM huge torque output. Great power to weight ratio too.

I couldn't keep FE's together very long. I couldn't get the "Y" Blocks to really run at the strip. Even 300/312s were a disappointment. Loads of top end if ya had all day to get there.

FEs are a legend and many guys had good success with them, but they're the most confusing engine to sort out & BIG ones are getting rare & costly.

FBp

[jakdad]

The only guy I bought hot dogs from outside the Ford plant was named Henry..............

[Johnny Canuck]

Lyman, or should I call you Mr Edwards I can see that story popping up as gospel truth on message boards for years from now

[Hawkrod]

Pete, more info for you. I don't post at FTE anymore. I was banned but I do have multiple accounts so I can, I just refuse to because Ken is such a jerk. I don't let his users benefit from my experience but I read the posts so I can make fun of him elsewhere on the web. Hey, we all need a hobby! LOL. Anyway, NumberDummy is wrong. Ford did offer a 390 2V on 68-76 trucks and they are relatively common (especially in camper specials) and the engine code is a H in the VIN from 68-76. The 390 4V is a little rarer because it was only offered in 1975 and 1976 and the engine code is a M in the VIN. There are no Ford documents that I can find to support a 4V 390 before 1975 so I don't believe his "facts" about a 390 4V. Also, his Edsel info is incorrect. The 58 Edsels were only available with two engines as I noted above. There were no 58's with 6 cylinders or 292's and the 361 or E410 as Edsel called it (BTW, the number represents the torque the engine produced not HP or cubic displacement as many people assumed) was not an optional engine, it was standard on the models listed. He also wrote that the 361 was used in the Corsair which is also wrong as the only engine used in the Corsair and Citation in 58 was the 410 or E475 as Edsel called it. He has mixed and twisted information to come to his statements and just a little research would have shown him his errors quite easily. Hawkrod

[jakdad]

Hey Hawk,back in the day, my understandig was the 361 & 391 were truck engines with steel cranks. I had a 292 truck engine with a steel crank. Been a long time, I could be wrong.

[FORDBOYpete]

Thanks Hawk Rod!
I was never into the Edsels that much, they were at a diferent Dlr-Ships than I worked at. I mostly was Ford & Ford Truck, L-M was down the street a ways. Edsel was there for a while, the 1960 was the absolute Pitts for me!

I'm curious if you have been folllowing the crap about tweaking Drum Brakes with ridiculous bandaid schemes.
Bigger boosters and boosters on systems not designed for them and split systems on early Slicks with the dual wheel cyls and all sorts of stuff we tried back in the day. It didn't work then and it still doesn't work. They don't want to hear it. Oh Well. . .

I keep saying overpowering drum systems actually reduces stopping ability the more brakes are applied.
Yet I get people who want to argue that drums are "as good as" or "Discs are no better than" and all that BS!

One guy has been thru 3 M-Cyls & is now re-sleeving his wheel cyls with brass liners & remachining where Flex Hoses go on a drum system that has not worked since he got his Truck. Says he doesn't have the dust to do discs and has saved over $550 already by doing what he is dong instead of upgrading to a Disc system. . I can't figure that one out. . . . . Oh well the two words I got for him are "MerrY ChristmaS" or "Ho Ho"

But I will wish y'all here a Merry Christmas & a happy New Year too. . . .

I gotta step outta here for a while. One of My Daughters is getting married out of town, Monday so I'll probably be absent & missing for a while. Ought to be back after Christmas though.


FBp

[FORDBOYpete]

Jim,
I believe the engines U-Haul had were the 361CID FT and the 391 CID FT. They were definetly truck only Truck Type Engines. Looked a little like an FE from a Football Field Away, but not up close, at all.

FBp

[jakdad]

OK Pete, what about the 391 steel cranks that they cut the snouts down to fit passenger car FEs. These were race only set ups due to cost. I love this FE stuff but it does get confusing.

[Hawkrod]

Ford made steel cranks for 427's and for 361/391 engines. They are not the same part as the 427 cranks are car cranks and have a different flange and snout. They are fairly common but expensive. The 391 cranks are very common and are often cut down by hot rodders to fit cars but there are some issues there including the weight and the fact that the 391 balancer bolt is so big that when you cut down the snout to fit a car it doesn't leave a thick wall. Not normally a problem but with a crank driven blower it can be an issue. U-hauls normally had 330MD's which is a whole 'nother can of worms. The 330MD is a special contract engine that Ford worked out with U-haul and it is basically a bastard crossbreed between an FE and an FT. The real problem with U-hauls is very few have virgin engines and they can have anything available in them as U-haul service centers install whatever is cheap and locally available. You will find 390's in them very often but just as often they will have the 330/361/391 heads on them. Hawkrod

[jakdad]

Thanks Hawk, I didn't know there were issues with the wall thickness on the turned down snouts. That could be remedied but again extremely expensive. You're right, no place for a blower.

[64 f100]

Interesting conversation. To add to the confusion, I will add, that the first turnpike cruiser engine was a 368, which derived as the Lincoln y-block and was used in Ford trucks and started out, I think, originally as a 279 or 302. I have a 332 and a 361 short blocks that were rebuilt many years ago in St. Louis. Haven't decided what to do with either of these engines, although I may use these in a truck sooner or later. I also have some EDC heads to go with the 332, but these need rebuilt.

Rich