Rack and Pinion Power steering on a Straight axle
Rack and Pinion Power steering on a Straight axle
Skip, Send me a e with your phone number as I want to talk to you about what you are doing to put Power steering on your straight axle. Are you putting a power box on or are you going to try a rack and pinion. i have it all figured out ( I think ) for the Mounting of a Mustang 11 rack to the axle and the steering shaft linkage mounting from the rack to the column. I am going to get some measurements to Matt and he is going to fab me up the mounts I need for the rack to the axle and I am going to go to a Yard for semis for what I need for the steering shaft. I will put some pics up of what I am going to try when I have it all gathered up..................Kid
65 f-100, Mostly Stock
64 F-100, 4in roof chop and on a car frame
64 F100, Project, not sure what to do with it
61 Long Uni project
79 F-250 Super Cab Long Box
74 Duster, Future Project
Dropped,Chopped,Tubbed,and Stubbed is the way to go
It is easier to ask Forgivness than to ask Permission
64 F-100, 4in roof chop and on a car frame
64 F100, Project, not sure what to do with it
61 Long Uni project
79 F-250 Super Cab Long Box
74 Duster, Future Project
Dropped,Chopped,Tubbed,and Stubbed is the way to go
It is easier to ask Forgivness than to ask Permission
-
Uncle Skip
- Posts: 4695
- Joined: July 15, 2006, 8:30 pm
- Location: Pearland, Texas
Thanks Skip. I will call you Tomorrow when I get a chance.....Kid
65 f-100, Mostly Stock
64 F-100, 4in roof chop and on a car frame
64 F100, Project, not sure what to do with it
61 Long Uni project
79 F-250 Super Cab Long Box
74 Duster, Future Project
Dropped,Chopped,Tubbed,and Stubbed is the way to go
It is easier to ask Forgivness than to ask Permission
64 F-100, 4in roof chop and on a car frame
64 F100, Project, not sure what to do with it
61 Long Uni project
79 F-250 Super Cab Long Box
74 Duster, Future Project
Dropped,Chopped,Tubbed,and Stubbed is the way to go
It is easier to ask Forgivness than to ask Permission
Lol, don't for get me in this one.
1964 F 100 - I am going to do "something" with it.......
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=15942
1987 Mustang LX Convertible, 2.3 Auto - cruiser.
1994 F 150 XLT 2WD
~ Yes - I adopted another cat..............
Cam L Milan,
You'll be missed my friend.
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=15942
1987 Mustang LX Convertible, 2.3 Auto - cruiser.
1994 F 150 XLT 2WD
~ Yes - I adopted another cat..............
Cam L Milan,
You'll be missed my friend.
Greg, If you are coming over for GreedyGuys in July you should be able to see it firsthand. If I am far enough along on it you can come out by the House and see what you think. I will try to call you Tonite if I can..............Kid
got way to much time to think about this stuff, it all seems so simple that I am wondering what I am missing
got way to much time to think about this stuff, it all seems so simple that I am wondering what I am missing
65 f-100, Mostly Stock
64 F-100, 4in roof chop and on a car frame
64 F100, Project, not sure what to do with it
61 Long Uni project
79 F-250 Super Cab Long Box
74 Duster, Future Project
Dropped,Chopped,Tubbed,and Stubbed is the way to go
It is easier to ask Forgivness than to ask Permission
64 F-100, 4in roof chop and on a car frame
64 F100, Project, not sure what to do with it
61 Long Uni project
79 F-250 Super Cab Long Box
74 Duster, Future Project
Dropped,Chopped,Tubbed,and Stubbed is the way to go
It is easier to ask Forgivness than to ask Permission
Here's a link to some pictures of my brothers 63, as he was setting it up for a rack. He used a Mustang II rack.
http://photos.globetrotter.net/albums/a ... aram=10236
He doesn't have it on the road, so no information as to the handling.
http://photos.globetrotter.net/albums/a ... aram=10236
He doesn't have it on the road, so no information as to the handling.
61 Mercury SWB Uni - Project
62 Mercury SWB BBW - Race truck
63 Ford SWB Uni - Daily driver (Jinx)
63 Ford SWB Uni - Parts truck
62 Mercury SWB BBW - Race truck
63 Ford SWB Uni - Daily driver (Jinx)
63 Ford SWB Uni - Parts truck
61 merc, how did he mount the rack and what are his plans for steering linkage.........Kid
65 f-100, Mostly Stock
64 F-100, 4in roof chop and on a car frame
64 F100, Project, not sure what to do with it
61 Long Uni project
79 F-250 Super Cab Long Box
74 Duster, Future Project
Dropped,Chopped,Tubbed,and Stubbed is the way to go
It is easier to ask Forgivness than to ask Permission
64 F-100, 4in roof chop and on a car frame
64 F100, Project, not sure what to do with it
61 Long Uni project
79 F-250 Super Cab Long Box
74 Duster, Future Project
Dropped,Chopped,Tubbed,and Stubbed is the way to go
It is easier to ask Forgivness than to ask Permission
He mounted the rack on a new crossmember, but I need to talk to him about the toe-in/out problems he will have. He is looking for a new steering column, and then work on the linkage.
61 Mercury SWB Uni - Project
62 Mercury SWB BBW - Race truck
63 Ford SWB Uni - Daily driver (Jinx)
63 Ford SWB Uni - Parts truck
62 Mercury SWB BBW - Race truck
63 Ford SWB Uni - Daily driver (Jinx)
63 Ford SWB Uni - Parts truck
Well I think I got the linkage figured out just need to make sure how I can safely mount the rack to the axle and make the tie rod ends work. Going to try to talk to Skip Today and been talking to Matt on this as he is going to fab whatever I need to mount it up. I got a 250 Uni setting across the street from me and am going to see if I can get some measurements off the axle ( 100 to 250 axles are the same arnt they, just spindle differences ) And want to hit the Semi Salvage yards for the steering parts I want. Now all I need to do is scrounge up a Mustang II rack or I guess any rack will do as long as I can make it mount up. I am not sure about the tie rod ends and what will need to be done for that. I will keep a album of what we are doing and keep everyone up to date on this...............Kid
65 f-100, Mostly Stock
64 F-100, 4in roof chop and on a car frame
64 F100, Project, not sure what to do with it
61 Long Uni project
79 F-250 Super Cab Long Box
74 Duster, Future Project
Dropped,Chopped,Tubbed,and Stubbed is the way to go
It is easier to ask Forgivness than to ask Permission
64 F-100, 4in roof chop and on a car frame
64 F100, Project, not sure what to do with it
61 Long Uni project
79 F-250 Super Cab Long Box
74 Duster, Future Project
Dropped,Chopped,Tubbed,and Stubbed is the way to go
It is easier to ask Forgivness than to ask Permission
-
blackagatha
- Posts: 2582
- Joined: March 10, 2007, 12:49 am
- Location: Arizona
seems to me that the rack on the frame setup would react to changes in ride height just like on it's native IFS, would it not? Granted, the toe in/out is an issue I never considered, but it seems it should be minor.... shouldn't it?
I thought a long time ago about putting it on the axle, but that method required some sort of slip-shaft for the linkage to the column... seemed like it would eventually make problems of wearing out.... unless you greased it like 3 times a week....
I have a toyota box in the garage, but I think I may wind up laying it aside for a project down the road??? and trying to find a rack instead... It's just going to cause too many problems under there... mainly with the header, I think...
I thought a long time ago about putting it on the axle, but that method required some sort of slip-shaft for the linkage to the column... seemed like it would eventually make problems of wearing out.... unless you greased it like 3 times a week....
I have a toyota box in the garage, but I think I may wind up laying it aside for a project down the road??? and trying to find a rack instead... It's just going to cause too many problems under there... mainly with the header, I think...
'63 with 390 & lots of juice. But never enough. Always want more.
I'm in the process of doing this conversion myself. I just got a stock set of steering arms to redesign, adjust for bump steer & duplicate via waterjet.
As soon as I get them done I'll post some pix.
Because my truck is severly lowered I'll also need to cut 1/2 moons in the frame above the rack. I'll be doing the same add on Xmember to facilitate a clean - easy to get to mounting spot.
I'm going with a flaming river NON power rack & will be fabricating my own steering colum - like my pro street nova.
Anything can be done..........if you want it done.
Paul
As soon as I get them done I'll post some pix.
Because my truck is severly lowered I'll also need to cut 1/2 moons in the frame above the rack. I'll be doing the same add on Xmember to facilitate a clean - easy to get to mounting spot.
I'm going with a flaming river NON power rack & will be fabricating my own steering colum - like my pro street nova.
Anything can be done..........if you want it done.
Paul
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Garbz
garbz, Isnt the main issue of using a rack and pinion that the rack needs to be mounted to the axle because if it is mounted to a crossmember it will cause severe bump steer every time you hit a hole or bump. The big issue is the axle moving and needing a moveable steering shaft . The Steering shaft is the easy part and the Mounting the rack to the axle is figured out and I think the tie rod ends hooking to the rack is figured out after talking with Matt. What, in your opinion am I missing if anything. I tried to send you a E and all I had was your old addy. Send me a E with your new one.............kid
65 f-100, Mostly Stock
64 F-100, 4in roof chop and on a car frame
64 F100, Project, not sure what to do with it
61 Long Uni project
79 F-250 Super Cab Long Box
74 Duster, Future Project
Dropped,Chopped,Tubbed,and Stubbed is the way to go
It is easier to ask Forgivness than to ask Permission
64 F-100, 4in roof chop and on a car frame
64 F100, Project, not sure what to do with it
61 Long Uni project
79 F-250 Super Cab Long Box
74 Duster, Future Project
Dropped,Chopped,Tubbed,and Stubbed is the way to go
It is easier to ask Forgivness than to ask Permission
When you have it all figgured out let me in in on the secret. No manufaturers use the rack on straight axles to this day for good reason.
Garbz
OK........and those reasons have been..........
It appears that No Limit has figured it out for trucks up to 1960 as they offer the set up in a kit form for sale right off their web site & all of their print adds..... and I've asked about later years & they are working on it....
Paul
Can you site one manufacturer, Ford, GM, Chryco, IH, Freightliner, Pete, MACK etcetera that has used a rack and pinion in this manner?
I do know of one instance of this being applied for motorcoach useage, but it isn't being accepted by the coach industry. Mostly because there is no precedent of this type of system working properly or lasting over the long term. And it places the steering column directly over the axle instead of placeing the driver out over the front of the axle as currently used. Using this type of steering would force a redesign and a shorter coach or a longer wheel base.
The biggest problem is steering input. Any braying moron can bolt a rack to an axle and connect the tie rod ends to the spindles. And if you are OK with the loss of steering angle or have shortened your steering arms to compensate (increasing the effort needed to turn the wheels and therefore shortening the lifespan of the components) You would still need to design a jointed shafting system that will resist SUSPENSION loads.
Your steering column lower busing/bearing will need to be properly reinforced as well the mounting of the column to the floor to resist the new forces induced by the suspension movements AND need to find steering universals rated for such an application. PTO type universals are probably up to the challenge, 'cause I can assure you regular Borgeson and Flaming River steering universals will wear out in no time flat. Hell, I can kill a set of those joints just dealing with body flex on an offroader in a matter of months! You will also need to check for steering bind at the extremes of your suspension travel. Most universal joints are not going to take more than 30 degrees of angle and the failure point is accelerated at those extreme angles.
You will still suffer from a type of bump steer with this system. As the axle articulates under the chassis the steering input will change with it. Minor point maybe for something that sees less than a few degrees of movement but it will happen non-the-less.
I do know of one instance of this being applied for motorcoach useage, but it isn't being accepted by the coach industry. Mostly because there is no precedent of this type of system working properly or lasting over the long term. And it places the steering column directly over the axle instead of placeing the driver out over the front of the axle as currently used. Using this type of steering would force a redesign and a shorter coach or a longer wheel base.
The biggest problem is steering input. Any braying moron can bolt a rack to an axle and connect the tie rod ends to the spindles. And if you are OK with the loss of steering angle or have shortened your steering arms to compensate (increasing the effort needed to turn the wheels and therefore shortening the lifespan of the components) You would still need to design a jointed shafting system that will resist SUSPENSION loads.
Your steering column lower busing/bearing will need to be properly reinforced as well the mounting of the column to the floor to resist the new forces induced by the suspension movements AND need to find steering universals rated for such an application. PTO type universals are probably up to the challenge, 'cause I can assure you regular Borgeson and Flaming River steering universals will wear out in no time flat. Hell, I can kill a set of those joints just dealing with body flex on an offroader in a matter of months! You will also need to check for steering bind at the extremes of your suspension travel. Most universal joints are not going to take more than 30 degrees of angle and the failure point is accelerated at those extreme angles.
You will still suffer from a type of bump steer with this system. As the axle articulates under the chassis the steering input will change with it. Minor point maybe for something that sees less than a few degrees of movement but it will happen non-the-less.
well I do not consider myself a braying moron and I can show you many manufacturers who use the concept I am thinking about, Ford,IH, Paccar., Freightliner , and many others. If it will hold up under the Heavy truck use I do not see why it will not work in Pickups and Cars.........Kid
65 f-100, Mostly Stock
64 F-100, 4in roof chop and on a car frame
64 F100, Project, not sure what to do with it
61 Long Uni project
79 F-250 Super Cab Long Box
74 Duster, Future Project
Dropped,Chopped,Tubbed,and Stubbed is the way to go
It is easier to ask Forgivness than to ask Permission
64 F-100, 4in roof chop and on a car frame
64 F100, Project, not sure what to do with it
61 Long Uni project
79 F-250 Super Cab Long Box
74 Duster, Future Project
Dropped,Chopped,Tubbed,and Stubbed is the way to go
It is easier to ask Forgivness than to ask Permission
-
Garbz
It appears that No Limit has figured it out for trucks up to 1960 as they offer the set up in a kit form for sale right off their web site & all of their print adds..... and I've asked about later years & they are working on it....
Paul
They sell with thier kits a new steering arms to compensate for the lack of travel in the rack. Thus increasing wear. Your truck stock had a long travel lock to lock with a rack it is reduced by at least three quarters of the travel.
A rack without new shorter arms will have a fifty foot turning radius.
All i want is to know how to do it. Not hear that Ron McGreggor did it.
Garbz
PS garbz@industrialchassisinc.com
Paul
They sell with thier kits a new steering arms to compensate for the lack of travel in the rack. Thus increasing wear. Your truck stock had a long travel lock to lock with a rack it is reduced by at least three quarters of the travel.
A rack without new shorter arms will have a fifty foot turning radius.
All i want is to know how to do it. Not hear that Ron McGreggor did it.
Garbz
PS garbz@industrialchassisinc.com
kid2 wrote:I can show you many manufacturers who use the concept I am thinking about, Ford,IH, Paccar., Freightliner , and many others. .........Kid
Well, Don't hold back then. Show me the pictures.
Proof of concept
I always love hearing the comparisons to heavy industry truck stuff. Like it has anything to do with common variety half ton trucks. Apples and oranges my friend.
E-gadz,
It looks as if I hit a nerve with my mention of the No Limit kit - ouch - sorry. I guessing they beat you to the punch - (your PS showing up on your last post in this thread).
But that aside - as I mentioned in my earlier post, here, I fully intend to change the steering arms to compensate for the change to the rack. I believe I actually mentioned picking up a stock set to do some design work on them.....and having a new set waterjeted.
Although my web site is not as impressive as yours..... I do have a basic knowledge of what I'm attempting to do. Am I sure it can be accoplished......no - not yet. If I can bring my design & thoughts to a functioning product (that works) I will share my install with everyone here.
If it doesn't I'll be cutting the stock front end out & replacing with an up to date front end set up with a R & P.
I'll keep you posted. But in the mean time I do happen to like the way Ron did it!!
Paul
It looks as if I hit a nerve with my mention of the No Limit kit - ouch - sorry. I guessing they beat you to the punch - (your PS showing up on your last post in this thread).
But that aside - as I mentioned in my earlier post, here, I fully intend to change the steering arms to compensate for the change to the rack. I believe I actually mentioned picking up a stock set to do some design work on them.....and having a new set waterjeted.
Although my web site is not as impressive as yours..... I do have a basic knowledge of what I'm attempting to do. Am I sure it can be accoplished......no - not yet. If I can bring my design & thoughts to a functioning product (that works) I will share my install with everyone here.
If it doesn't I'll be cutting the stock front end out & replacing with an up to date front end set up with a R & P.
I'll keep you posted. But in the mean time I do happen to like the way Ron did it!!
Paul
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Garbz
No beating to the punch. No professional interest here over it.
This thread has been beat killed and drug throught the mire for the last few years with Rich and others attempting to figgure out how to do it.
I was a skeptic then and i am now. I have been wrenching on slicks for 30 some years and have yet to see a method of getting a moving rack to cooperate with a stationary steering collum. They are mounted on stationary frame components for a reason. There made of cheap cintzy aluminum with marginal bushings and seals. Have you ever looked at a MII Rack? Either the TRW one or the worse Ford one......
What is going to hold the steering collum in place? Not stock mounts. Its a little more involved than some companies will tell you.
Kid I have no doubts of your and Matts Prowess at fabrication. If anyone can pull it off you can. But for the 600 bucks for the competitions kit... Crap you guys have just thrown away entire frames and re engineered things. I see no good way to alleviate the tendency of when the one side of the axle drops in relation to overcome the degree swing the u joints and shafts will encounter.
Kid i will give you a call tonight i got the voice mail.
Garbz
This thread has been beat killed and drug throught the mire for the last few years with Rich and others attempting to figgure out how to do it.
I was a skeptic then and i am now. I have been wrenching on slicks for 30 some years and have yet to see a method of getting a moving rack to cooperate with a stationary steering collum. They are mounted on stationary frame components for a reason. There made of cheap cintzy aluminum with marginal bushings and seals. Have you ever looked at a MII Rack? Either the TRW one or the worse Ford one......
What is going to hold the steering collum in place? Not stock mounts. Its a little more involved than some companies will tell you.
Kid I have no doubts of your and Matts Prowess at fabrication. If anyone can pull it off you can. But for the 600 bucks for the competitions kit... Crap you guys have just thrown away entire frames and re engineered things. I see no good way to alleviate the tendency of when the one side of the axle drops in relation to overcome the degree swing the u joints and shafts will encounter.
Kid i will give you a call tonight i got the voice mail.
Garbz