True Definition...

[azjake]

In 1964, Pontiac decided to install a 389ci engine in a Le Mans and called it the GTO. The term "Muscle Car" was used to describe it and any other small body car that had a big block engine installed.

Now, the term "Muscle Car" is used to describe any high performance vehicle, and not neccessarily one with a small body and a big block. It irritates me. Maybe because I once owned a '64 Goat, or maybe I am just getting old and cranky? Naw...that can't be it!

Oh, and what we used to call a power slide, cutting cookies or cutting doughnuts is now Drifting", like it is something new.

Maybe I am cranky...or an Olf Art...


Jake

[fire truck]

I'm with ya, it annoys me to hear a mustang or camero get called a muscle car, when they are in fact pony cars......

[Uncle Skip]

Well, I remember a couple of Mustangs that qualified as "Muscle Cars", if you get my "drift".

[azjake]

Well, I remember a couple of Mustangs that qualified as "Muscle Cars", if you get my "drift".

and early Camaro SS with the 396...

Jake

[66ford]

Calling the new mustang a "Muscle car" Is just a selling point, due to the fact that their is not a true "muscle car" out today, It opens a much larger group of people who will now buy the car. it gets to me too. But drifting, this is people doing a 100 while racing inches from another car from corner to corner, not simply doing donuts or just going around a turn a little sideways. watch some of it, its amazing.

[66ford]

This is drifting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d_-HRAG ... re=related
This is funny drifting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hO1-muAY ... re=related

And this is in my opinion one of the greatest drivers in the world, he does off-road truck racing (Lucas oil), world championship rally's, Numerous x games gold medals for driving, Top gear, and a show called Super cars exposed, and hes only 37.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHtwUr-IkHM

[Greg D]

Muscle Car;
Large CID Performance engine in a mid-size car - GTO, Chevelle, Torino were considered mid-size's.
Pony Car;
Performance version of a compact car - may actually be the whole body line too.
Yes Mustangs, Camaros, et al were considered to be in the compact class back in the day.
Vega & Pinto for example were sub-compacts then.

[Brians1966]

Well, I remember a couple of Mustangs that qualified as "Muscle Cars", if you get my "drift".

and early Camaro SS with the 396...

Jake

1969 BOSS 302 Mustang

Brian

[fire truck]

Well, I remember a couple of Mustangs that qualified as "Muscle Cars", if you get my "drift".

and early Camaro SS with the 396...

Jake

1969 BOSS 302 Mustang

Brian

is a pony car...

[Johnny Canuck]

I never heard the term Pony car much before this forum, although I agree "Muscle car" refers to the mid size Lemans/Chevelle/Satellite/ Coronet/Fairlane/Torino/Cutlass line of cars with a big block and a 4 speed in them in my mind.

Javelins, Mustangs, Camaros, Firebirds, Cudas and Challengers.. those were always my favorite sized cars, at least up until 71 or so, when some got fat, starting with Camaro. Some people used to refer to them as "Sports" cars, or Factory hot rods"... can't recall anyone calling them "Pony cars" per se, back in the day,tho. I suppose the big block Mustangs, Trans ams, and Cudas, Challengers and Camaros would qualify as "Muscle cars" ... I always kind of thought of that body size as Trans-am (racing) class cars.

Where would Novas, Falcons, and Darts fit then? those were the base cars for the so called "Pony" cars

[Alan Mclennan]

I always thought that pony car, only referred to a Mustang!, or the trim some had!, or even a ebay term that has popped up!, any car from the factory with a copious amount of horse power!, would fit the bill for Muscle car!.

[ezernut9mm]

from wiki. take it for what it's worth, but pretty accurate from what i have read in the past.

Pony car competitors
1965 Plymouth Barracuda
1968 Chevrolet Camaro
1969 AMC Javelin

Despite the immediate success of the Mustang, many (including some within Ford) feared that the bubble would soon burst, and other manufacturers were relatively slow to respond. The first competitor was the Plymouth Barracuda, which actually went on sale on April 1, 1964, about two weeks before the Mustang.[15] The Barracuda was not a direct response to the Mustang, which had not yet debuted (although Chrysler was certainly aware of the upcoming model), but a low-cost way to expand the sporty appeal of the Valiant. Chrysler's precarious financial situation meant that the Barracuda was compromised, with insufficient distinction from the Valiant and styling that drew mixed reactions; its sales were a fraction of the Mustang's. It has been described that if the Barracuda was successful, as well as the similar fastback Rambler Tarpon introduced as planned before the Mustang,[1] the term for this class of automobile might have been "fish car," rather than "pony car."[2][16] However, the Mustang, unlike the Barracuda, featured a completely unique body style from the car on which it was based (the Ford Falcon), making it the first true pony car.[17]

Initially, General Motors believed that the restyled 1965 Corvair would be an adequate challenger for the Mustang, but when it became clear that the Corvair itself was doomed, the more conventional Chevrolet Camaro was introduced,[13] going on sale for the 1967 model year, at the time the Mustang received its first major redesign. They were also joined by the Camaro-based Pontiac Firebird and the Mustang-based Mercury Cougar. American Motors joined late in 1967 with the AMC Javelin,[18] described by race driver Gordon Johncock "as a roomy, comfortable, peppy and handsome example of a so-called pony car, the type of automobile that's showing up more and more on US highways."[19] February 1968 was the introduction of AMC's two-seat AMX at the Daytona International Speedway. Not much bigger than European sports cars, but with purely American performance,[18] the AMX was "a Walter Mitty Ferrari" with a "truly distinctive long-hood/really-short-deck profile [that] nearly redefined the pony car image."[20] The U.S. "market was filled with pony cars ... however the AMC Javelin was not the last pony car to hit the showrooms—it was Dodge's 1970 Challenger", an enlarged version of the Barracuda.[21][22]

The pony car classification was applied to all versions of these nameplates, from the base economy models, as well as models with more equipment, features, or the "muscle" performance models.[23] The intention of these performance models and factory support in racing was on developing a competitive marketing image for their pony cars.[24] The automaker's marketing department's strategy was to promote a perception of these as "sports-type" muscle and performance to promote sales. The competition between the manufacturers was so fierce that the Trans-Am Series from 1966 to 1972 is described as "The Pony Car Wars".[25]

While sales were strong throughout the end of the 1960s, the greater value of the pony cars was in bringing buyers, particularly the crucial youth market, into the fold. In 1970 Car and Driver reported that while very few pony car drivers bought a second pony car, around 50% moved on to purchase another car of the same make. Nevertheless, even by 1969 sales were beginning to slide, dropping to 9% of the total market, from a peak of 13% in 1967.

The success Ford experienced with the Mustang also inspired Japanese car maker Toyota to introduce the Toyota Celica.[26] Toyota used Ford's idea of building the Mustang on the economy car Ford Falcon and built the first Celica on the Toyota Carina platform. The Celica had a similar appearance to the 1968 Mustang with smaller dimensions, which also competed with the Nissan Fairlady Z / Datsun 240Z, Nissan Skyline, Mitsubishi Galant GTO, and the Isuzu 117 Coupé. In Europe Ford began production of the Lotus Cortina which was then replaced with the European Ford Capri[27], and GM of Europe introduced the Vauxhall Firenza. In April 1970, Ford began selling the Capri outside Europe, in North America as the Mercury Capri, South Africa and Australia.

The following is a list of muscle cars and their manufacturers (along with the pony car of the same company):
Manufacturer Pony car Muscle car
AMC Javelin SST Machine
Buick none Gran Sport
Chevrolet Camaro Chevelle SS
Dodge Challenger Charger RT
Ford Mustang Torino GT
Mercury Cougar Cyclone CJ
Oldsmobile none 442
Plymouth Barracuda Road Runner
Pontiac Firebird GTO

[Brians1966]

OK you got me on The Boss- but answer me this then
what classification would you give for the Ford Galaxie 406, Chevy Impala 409, Pontiac Catalina 421, Mopar Belvader/Coronet 426 wedge.

[Toyz]

OK you got me on The Boss- but answer me this then
what classification would you give for the Ford Galaxie 406, Chevy Impala 409, Pontiac Catalina 421, Mopar Belvader/Coronet 426 wedge.

Super Stocks
Paul

[azjake]

From 66ford, "But drifting, this is people doing a 100 while racing inches from another car from corner to corner, not simply doing donuts or just going around a turn a little sideways. watch some of it, its amazing."

But, isn't this what the dirt track drivers have been doing forever in midgets, modifieds and stock car classes? I have always heard this referred to as a "Power Slide" around turns, and never drifting.

Watching a midget or modified going around a turn in the dirt with the left front tire never touching the ground in a power slide, is something to behold. Power is used (to control the slide), along with steering, to negotiate the turn.

Jake

[Johnny Canuck]

OK you got me on The Boss- but answer me this then
what classification would you give for the Ford Galaxie 406, Chevy Impala 409, Pontiac Catalina 421, Mopar Belvader/Coronet 426 wedge.

Boats.
Boats With big strong motors!!
Not sure the Chryslers are the same category... they had so many names for their B body cars it is confusing.

ed. again from wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_B_platform

so I would say the Chryslers officially qualify as Muscle cars

[charliemccraney]

, any car from the factory with a copious amount of horse power!, would fit the bill for Muscle car!.

That's what I thought. Many newer cars fit that. There are 6 cylinders today that a big block couldn't touch.

But drifting, this is people doing a 100 while racing inches from another car from corner to corner, not simply doing donuts or just going around a turn a little sideways. watch some of it, its amazing.

Agreed. Drifting isn't just doing donuts or power sliding around a corner. The goal of drifting is to stay sideways as long as possible, and to do it with surgical precision and style. A dirt track racer might have a leg up on someone who's never raced before, but I guarantee his first time out will not be as graceful as a pro drifter.

[azjake]

The first time that I saw what is called "Drifting" was on a cable car show. The reporter stated that it started in Japan then showed video clips...of a car doing large "Doughnuts" or "Cookies" in a parking lot. Evidently, the definition...or sport...has changed since then.

[Toyz]

Charlie said:
"That's what I thought. Many newer cars fit that. There are 6 cylinders today that a big block couldn't touch."

So that would make my four-cylinder Fox body a Pinto-powered muscle pony car?
Paul

[charliemccraney]

Only if that 4 cyl has copious amounts of hp.