Forget converting to EFI.

[Garbz]

Apparently you have never tried to start said big block in Zero degree weather with a choke. And then maintain any semblance of idle or drivability before the thing has driven fifty miles to fully warm up.

Theres a lot more to it than just fuel economy... I love just turning the key and it fires every damn time no matter what the temps.....-10 back in PA or here with 105 temps. IT STARTS EVRY TIME.

Garbz

[ethan_lanning]

I have a big block and it
takes about 15 minutes to get
it warmed up enough just to drive down
the street to the school.

[DV65CustomCab]

Let's not forget the joys of tuning that programmable (high end, fully adjustable, port injection) FI system initially as well. I have yet to meet someone with a Crane or Electromotive FI system that didn't spend months or even years playing with the parameters trying to get it to do everything right.

[FORDBOYpete]

I Concur with Garbz 200%

Anyone who has a "grip on EFI Technology" agrees it is way ahead of anything else out there in the street. Especially if it is an MAFS~T/P EFI with a scanable & programable E-PROM Chip. Plus the tech expertise to grasp it's function.

Jon Bernule & ol' Whatcha M'Callit, his partner layed out the principles of why fuel injection would work back in 1738. Venturi relied on them when he came up with the carburetor 140 odd years later, but failed to realize detriments of trying to carry an Air+Fuel load in a moving air column from atomization point (aka Carb) to a combustion chamber (aka Cylinder) altho Bernule spelled that faulting out before it even existed in the 1700's.
Hilborn came out with Mechanical FI in 1930-40s. But it too relied on mechanical technology. It was clunky at best as a result of it. But with the advent of Digital Technology and better understanding of what Bernule was putting down in Hydrica Dynamica (circa 1738,AD) when he wrote it. Our ability to tap into actual properties of Fluid Dynamics by using digital electronic technology made the advancement of Mass Air Flow Sensed ~ Tuned Port, Electronic Fuel Injection become available and applicable.

I respect and appreciate your position & opinion here Doc, but you are on the outside and looking in at TP/EFI and that's not the most advantageous place to be making judgement calls from.

As far as upwards of $2K for a "System" that's a novice way to get EFI in My Opinion. Salvage yards are full of EFIs. They're cheap & easy to come by. With a fair amount of system knowledge & understanding even I got a MAFS~TP, EFI system to install & work.

I'm putting a MAFS~T/P, EFI Roller Engine in my 85 T-Bird Elan Coupe. It is replacing the archaic, old, CFI 2 injector system, Often mistakienly called TBI or Throttle Body Injection. The technology of Air Fuel column delivery is the same as Carburetors the CFI's were trying to replace. Port & specifically Tuned Port Injection is the Beez Kneez and a long way ahead of Central Fuel Injection or CFI of the 1980s.

For my it's not EFI that's obsolite it's the other technology, the one Barry Grant gets $1500 - $2000 a piece for. Especially when in fact, after all, it's still only a carburetor, albeit an over priced one at that. Carbs work like commodes. Too much fluid at the beginning, great in mid range, but not enough at top end where it's really required. They remain restricted by a lack if infinite variabilities, their fixed, constant, mechanical limitations, & profound inability to change as conditions change.

As for the old argument "Yeah but you can't fix EFI on the Kitchen table" I say Pshaw! If I did have to "FIX" my EFI I wouldn't be working on the Kitchen Table anyhow as my wife would fast make my life a BAD one to be living.

On the bright side of this discussion, however, is the Fact that generally EFI systems don't go bad if they get a minimum of care & respect. I have one with a few miles short of a quarter million miles on it. I'm getting ready to do my 3rd tune up on "GP". I have well over 120K on plugs in it now. My ignition wires are 7 years old also.

Breakerless electronic Ignition or as you say EI is incorporate in it. Between both systems reliability is something to behold, I attest to that. It's a 4WD FoMoCo product. I get 23-4 mpg with the MAFS~T/P, EFI even with that Huge milage. . . . .

Should I put a carb on that ?.... NAH!

Above is my opinion based on owning, having & using EFIs over the years. It's the other side of the discussion you opened, thanx Doc.

FBp

[banjopicker66]

For simplicity's sake, I prefer a carb.

However, for technical reasons, I agree with Garbz and FBP, and wish I could afford to put a programmable EFI in my truck.

Ahem.
Corrrection ahead.

Bernouli.

Good information here:
http://www.coe.missouri.edu/~pgermann/D ... ciple.html

[64 f100]

Fuel injection has some deffinate advantages, but not all it's cracked up to be. I have no problem starting my trucks, in cold weather, and can take off anytime after being fired up. It does take time and extra fuel to warm the engine up. I would say, FI is the ideal app. for any engine, if you have the right programming, and fuel injecters at the cylinder port. Also are involved other criteria for optimal settings. To be exactly on the money, you need more than most state of the art fuel injections are set up with. You actually would need readings on every cylinder for mixture etc. Possible, but highly sophisticated, and not very practical. Instead you get one oxygen sensor, one temp. sensor, etc. to keep cost down. Truthfully, most engines don't need this, and will get fairly good mileage without it. With gas prices as is, the extra gas savings may pay for a good system in the north especially. At the same time, most of us are not comuter litterate, in the sence, that we can write our own programs. Using a stock set of programs with some changes is not really efficient, in my opnion. Any computer is only as good as what is put into it. Garbage in garbage out. Personally, if it doesn't have fuel injection, I doubt that I would bother to change it. On the other hand, if installing a late model engine with FI, why not do the wiring thing, if the engine got good mileage.

Rich

[Phil]

As long as it isn't a Barry Grant I prefer a carb.

[Shiny]

Hmmm,good post her guys for sure!

So has anyone on here taken a 300/I6 with FI and transpanted it into a Slick?
Was it worth it?
Lotsa work/thinking or not too bad?
I need a new mill for my crew cab and was debating on just getting a newer donor truck and transplanting the mill/trans into it.

-Shiny

[Greg D]

You did make a point as to the amount of work setting up an EFI, however a carb can be nearly as much of a PITA. Not to mention have you ever made your best educated guess on carb selection only to find out that to get the end result you were after you actually need a different carb? That can get abit pricey too. With an EFI once you get it set up, it's done, the computer will take over from there. I have never had a carb that I didn't have to readjust from time to time to keep it tweaked.

[MadMaxetc]

Hmmm,good post her guys for sure!

So has anyone on here taken a 300/I6 with FI and transpanted it into a Slick?
Was it worth it?
Lotsa work/thinking or not too bad?
I need a new mill for my crew cab and was debating on just getting a newer donor truck and transplanting the mill/trans into it.

-Shiny

The 300 EFI units from the 80s are not a hard transplant...IF...you are not scared of doing a little wireing.

You will get better drivability but not much better fuel econimy (1-2mpg).

You will also be limmeted on the max power output.

I would go for it.

[Phil]

I kicked around a 2.3 EFI Merkur turbo mill for this truck till I realized just how heavy it is.

My buddy had a 2.3 90 ranger that ran 1.5 consistanly before swapping it into a foxbody. That truck shocked everyone.

He said he had everything I need if I ever find a car to put it in.
A 65 Falcon EFI/2.3 Turbo would be sweet.

[FORDBOYpete]

To each their Own Huh Doc?

And what are points anyway, and why do they only last 20K miles?

FBp

[Garbz]

If doing a retrofit into a slick i recommend using a wiring harness and setup out of a 87 to 90 ford truck. the harness fits a slick reasonably well. and is not as involved as the later harness with integral ABS and other functions.

For a 300 Injected. it will do well plenty of torque and decent mileage. But you need to have a complete donor truck for the swap. there are extra fans required to be installed to run on after the shutdown to cool the engine compartment.

The wiring may seem daunting but is relativly simple point to point.

Garbz

[Bodyworx]

As long as it isn't a Barry Grant I prefer a carb.

I couldn't agree with you more. I have never in my life seen a carb like Barry Grant that is so tempermental. Ive been Drag racing for years with a bunch of buddies and one of my friends bought a Brand new Demon. This thing was junk right out of the box for $700.00. Ended up rebuilding the whole thing about 3 times before sending it back to BG for the 4th rebuild. It came back again .... Non Running. We went to the track and to my expectations it was backfiring and missing , runnin' out of fuel. My $250.00 Dominator went 11.60's. You don't always get what you payed for. My Motto has always been ... " Use what you know works " If my Ford truck came with EFI i would put EFI back on it but my Truck Came with a 1bbl so im rebuilding my 1bbl. Each to their own i guess. I could not justify the cost of the EFI setup to gain 2mpg in fuel economy. I have been averaging about 20+mpg with my 223 Inline and a 3 spd manual. Its 40+ Years old... What do you want. JMO

[Garbz]

Did anyone ever bother to read the instruction booklet supplied with BG carbs?

They are not ready to run out of the box. No carb is. They must be deflashed and cleaned, tweaked on rods,plus jetted to the altitude and application to run correctly.

Dont get me wrong, I like carbs too but for everyday hands down just start it and forget it driving of a vehicle EFI is hands down the best. It will compensate for tempature, altitude, and other programmed conditions instatly. No carb can do that. Plus the computer will tell you whats wrong if something craps out. Yes Christine has the check engine light for diagonstics. Not bad for a 66 truck.

Garbz

[cdherman]

Having just broken down and popped $450 for the sweetest looking Pony Carb restoration of an Autolite 1101 you will ever see, I must say that you CAN waste a lot of effort and time on carbs as well, never to mention money.

Failure with EFI tends to be catastrophic, as in you are dead on the road. But it thankfully occurs very very rarely.

Carbs and points are death by a thousand tiny cuts. Some folks have developed the knack of living with those sorts of ongoing hassles from a carb or points, and they are willing to pay the price to avoid the very rare "systems failure" of EFI.

I can see both sides. If I didn't have a tendency towards orignal in my pickup, I'd probably be looking for an 300 six from 1986-2006 for a swap. As it stands, I'll keep the 1965 approach.

[DV65CustomCab]

Let me clarify...if you are swapping in another engine, then by all means go for EFI. It is superior to carbs in both efficiency and reliability for the most part.

However!
If you've got an FE sitting under your hood as I do that was never offered with EFI, how do you get there? Only two ways I know; a TBI injection swap (not worth it) or a custom fabricated port injection system from either something else (have fun with that) or a aftermarket system (even less fun) that will need hours of tuning to even run halfway decent.
Or, I could just fiddle with a device as complicated as a toilet until I get it working decently. I think I'll stick with this option.
Point being, there is not a definitive answer for all applications. As they say, YMMV.

[Johnny Canuck]

I will pipe briefly in here because I have made very mistake there is to make in slickdom, looks like I am in for a couple more.

I used a Holley TBI on my Slick at Chop's recommendation, but Chop has since gone to a carb. It is, in combination with the computer to control the E4Od tranny, the bane of my existence. Several times recently, I thought to just toss the electronic tranny for an AOD and the FI for a carb and the DAMN THING WOULD BE ON THE ROAD. And my wallet would be another grand lighter, at least.

I also picked up an almost new 650 demon Barry grant carb off ebay, originally for use in my uni, which I sold, and now the carb is slated to go in the Bricklin.

NOW you guys tell me they are crap? NOW?
great.

[Phil]

Long post about BG. Skip it if ya want.



Well, thousands of guys have used BG carbs.
At 460ford.com its about 2/3rds against BG.
My most recent builder uses them on everything. He is a 351C guru.
Even he admits sometimes BG's machining leaves metal shavings in
the carb. I honestly think this is what nearly killed me and
destroyed my car.

I have had 3 Demon carbs.
A singlebowl, stutter Demon. It never ran right.
It wouldn't give a good take off without feathering no matter what I did.
The PO tried fixing it too and he knew what he was doing.

A Road Demon 525. Junk, same stutter,
leaked at the bowls and the choke never worked properly.

On my 466 I had a speed demon 750 with the choke removed
completely (learned from the 525 it wasn't worth it)
This carb had a good throttle response, was a good match
for the mill and fairly easy to adjust. Ran it for 8 months with no issues.
Out of the blue the throttle stuck at 35mph.
I slammed the brakes on but when I let up the car surged forward.
I panicked and instead of shutting it off I thought it was in my
linkage and blipped the throttle. Being new to BBFs
I wasn't ready for the launch and before I could get to the key
the car spun and I crashed totaling the car.
The ins adjuster came over and looked for the cause with me.
He was NHRA certified and raced. We couldn't find an issue.
Motor mounts OK, linkage OK, return springs good etc.
He left and I pushed the throttle back to WOT and noticed when
it returned it seemed to stop at 3/4 throttle.
I unhooked everything from the lever and pulled on it.
With some force it snapped into closed position.
It never stuck again.

I personally think it had a burr of metal get into the shaft.
There was one other funky thing with the left over choke lever but I can't fathom how it could cause the stick.

Based on sevice alone I'd never use BG
BGs tech support passed me around reading the instructions until my
8th phone call and a demand to speak to a supervisor led me to endless holds.
I made the mistake of mentioning the crash in that call.


Barry Grant can die in a fire.

Just one man's experience. I'm a Holley man for life.

[FORDBOYpete]

JC
They're not just crap now, they been tempermental crap fo 15 years. I thought that's why so many guys opted for EFI.

Biggest trouble with EFI, ya gotta know what your doing or it's a nightmare of grandiose proportions.
Conversely however, if you can wrap your mind around the theory, then grasp the fundamentals, then the technology,
all else looks lacking and fuzzy in comparison. At least in my feeble minded way of seeing stuff

I gotta go finish converting my riding mower to EFI Now. See Ya

FBp