No oil pressure???

6166 Junkyard Dog · Post by **6166 Junkyard Dog** » August 24, 2009, 6:15 am

is this dist a stock dist for a 352/360/390/406/428/427 and not for a 361/391 cause if so the shafts are a different size between the 2 FE Motors...???

6166 Junkyard Dog · Post by **6166 Junkyard Dog** » August 24, 2009, 6:19 am

oh one more thing see if you can compare the FE Dist. you have to be sure its a FE Dist and nobody slipped you something different and just in case if its new does not mean its right pull shaft out slip in dist to be sure its not slipping in bottom of distb....

Roger Carter · Post by **Roger Carter** » August 24, 2009, 9:35 am

What oil pressure did you have before changing pumps, etc?
Was your old pump possibly a high volume, or a high pressure pump? Is the new pump a stock replacement pump?
What speed is your drill motor? Most are in the 800-1200 rpm range. What is your engine idle speed?
Could it be that the drill motor is spinning the oil pump fast enough to build pressure but the engine at idle is not?
I have seen FE's with bad main bearings show little or no oil pressure at idle and have the pressure pick up considerably at 1200-1500 rpm.

Roger Carter

qwertyd10n · Post by **qwertyd10n** » August 24, 2009, 10:53 am

I'll try to answer the questions in order...

Timing set - I put on a Cloyes Street True Roller Timing Set. It has a 3 Keyway Crank Sprocket, but I installed it as indicated for stock timing.

Dizzy - I have a MDS Ready-To-Run distributor on my 352 and everything was working just fine before I tore into the engine a couple weeks ago. I also compared the shafts and they were exactly the same - 1/4" hex, not 5/16" as some of the FT engines used.

One other thing, if the shaft was incorrect, there's no way I'd be getting a 1/4" socket over it when I ran the pump with my drill.

Oil pressure/pump - When the engine was cold, I'd see about 40psi on my gauge... and then when it warmed up, I'd see just under 20psi at idle. Good question about the old pump Roger, I'll definitely check that as soon as I get home today - maybe it was already a high volume pump.

Not sure about the speed of my drill vs. my idle speed, but that's a good point as well. I know that even at partial speed on the drill the gauge was showing some pressure.

Thanks for the responses guys... at least I've got a couple new things to check.

Cheers,
Dion

Roger Carter · Post by **Roger Carter** » August 24, 2009, 11:06 am

Dion,
Is the oil pressure gauge a mechanical or electric unit? If it is electric there is a possibility the sendind unit went bad. I know it seems odd, but I had it happen to me, more than once.
DCarr asked about the timing gears. I have seen two different types also. On one set the cam gear looks like the original, with a flat back, and these need the seperate thrust spacer between the gear and cam. Most replacement sets have the thrust spacer built into the cam gear. To use these the cam thrust spacer must be removed from the cam. This is the washer that is shaped like the letter"C". I think this is what David was referring to.
Regardless which type is used, be sure to check the cam end play. Too much end play will cause engine noise.

Roger Carter

Gary Seymour · Post by **Gary Seymour** » August 24, 2009, 11:25 am

I once replaced a 460 in my '78 F250. I swapped the oil pans to keep the drain plug in the right position, but the pickup was too close to the bottom of the pan.

If I primed the pump with a drill the oil pressure was fine, but when the engine was running, the pump was starving for oil.

I also dropped a socket in the pan while priming the pump during this little project.

qwertyd10n · Post by **qwertyd10n** » August 24, 2009, 11:28 am

Roger, it's a mechanical oil pressure gauge.

Gary, I didn't replace the pickup or the pan... just the pump and shaft. So I can't that being an issue in my situation.

qwertyd10n · Post by **qwertyd10n** » August 24, 2009, 12:49 pm

Roger Carter wrote:Dion,
Is the oil pressure gauge a mechanical or electric unit? If it is electric there is a possibility the sendind unit went bad. I know it seems odd, but I had it happen to me, more than once.
DCarr asked about the timing gears. I have seen two different types also. On one set the cam gear looks like the original, with a flat back, and these need the seperate thrust spacer between the gear and cam. Most replacement sets have the thrust spacer built into the cam gear. To use these the cam thrust spacer must be removed from the cam. This is the washer that is shaped like the letter"C". I think this is what David was referring to.
Regardless which type is used, be sure to check the cam end play. Too much end play will cause engine noise.

Roger Carter

Just finished reading this again and thinking through what I did...

I don't remember seeing a separate spacer between the thrust plate and the camshaft gear... but if there was one, and my camshaft gear had the spacer built into it, what would be the outcome? The gear would be sitting further out and the chain would be a little cockeyed I suppose... could this cause major damage with just a couple start ups?

Fanatic · Post by **Fanatic** » August 24, 2009, 12:55 pm

I'm still going with----the dist. is not engaging the pump shaft! I would check that female hole in dist is same size as shaft since thats all that you replaced. this would also make noise since its not really engaging properly.

qwertyd10n · Post by **qwertyd10n** » August 24, 2009, 1:01 pm

On the cam thrust spacer still... you think I should remove the spacer that is depicting in the bottom diagram on the following link?

http://www.hotrodders.com/gallery/data/ ... t_info.jpg

6166 Junkyard Dog · Post by **6166 Junkyard Dog** » August 24, 2009, 2:29 pm

unless I am missing something timing chain has nothing to do with oil pressure that little spacer behind the gear will make noise if its a problem also one other THING IS THAT NOBODY SAID,,, Check there is 4 bolts holding the rockers down make sure the longest one goes where the oil hole is in the head have seen this bolt in wrong place and that is why I still say take valve cover off to be sure oiling all rockers should have oil coming through, one other

make sure the gasket for the oil filter adapter is correct and installed correctly...

Tech · Post by **Tech** » August 24, 2009, 6:21 pm

You have confirmed that the new shaft is 1/4" but is there a possibility that the old shaft /dizzy was 5/16"? also it appears your problem lies somewhere between the bottom of the dizzy and the top of the oil pump (it runs, it makes pressure with a drill) so either the shaft is too small or it is not properly engaging the dizzy. Have you put a ball of clay into the dizzy end reassembled it to check for squeeze out. just to confirm your measurements? The clip on the shaft could be setting the shaft too low if you can't get the 1/2" of engagement that you need.
Tech

Roger Carter · Post by **Roger Carter** » August 24, 2009, 6:54 pm

qwertyd10n wrote:On the cam thrust spacer still... you think I should remove the spacer that is depicting in the bottom diagram on the following link?

http://www.hotrodders.com/gallery/data/ ... t_info.jpg

Dion,
You need to have a spacer in place, to maintain proper camshaft end play. Whether that spaces is built into the cam gear, or is a seperate piece doesn't matter. Just as long as there is one spacer. If you still have the old cam gear you should check it to see if it had the spacer built in. If the old gear has a spacer you wouldn't (shouldn't) have the seperate spacer shown in the diagram.
As Tom (Junkyard Dog) says, the timing gears wouldn't affect oil pressure, but if installed wrong they could make noise.

Tech brings up a good point in confirming the size of the size of the oil pump shaft and the bottom of the distributor. A mis-match could explain your lack of pressure when running.

Did you match the new shaft to the old for length? If the length is the same I wouldn't be too concerned over the placement of the clip. I have seen FE's without the clip, and all is fine. The clip keeps the shaft from coming out of the oil pump, and falling into the pan, when the dist is removed. Once the dist and oil pump are installed the shaft is captive. The shaft normally runs bottomed out (resting) in the oil pump.
Good luck.

Roger Carter

6166 Junkyard Dog · Post by **6166 Junkyard Dog** » August 24, 2009, 7:17 pm

I sure would like to know the answer to this oil pressure ?

LM14 · Post by **LM14** » August 24, 2009, 7:18 pm

Screw in another oil pressure gauge right on the engine and start it up. You might have a bad gauge.
SPark

qwertyd10n · Post by **qwertyd10n** » August 24, 2009, 10:05 pm

I'm going to compare the old camshaft gear to another new one tomorrow (before ripping everything apart again) to check if the new gear has the spacer incorporated right into it.

As for the oil pressure situation, I quadruple checked the old oil pump shaft and pump tonight and confirmed that the old shaft is 1/4"... just like the new one is. I did compare the two shafts before installing and they were identical in length. The only thing I did differently when installing the new one was put the clip towards the top of the engine instead of down as it was on the old shaft. I have a couple engine building books that say the purpose of the shaft is to prevent it from coming right out of the pump when removing the dizzy. I can grab the new shaft from the top and it will come up just a little before bottoming on the block. And I checked this before putting the pan on too... the shaft sat bottomed in the oil pump and would lift up a fraction of an inch.

As for the old pump, not sure if it's a high volume pump or not. The part number is C8AE-6604-C. The only real reference I can find for it only is the following:

http://www.428cobrajet.org/id-oil-pump.html

6166 Junkyard Dog · Post by **6166 Junkyard Dog** » August 25, 2009, 6:12 am

Did you check the oil filter adapter gasket yet to be sure no blockage yet ? the clip should be on the bottom side of the hole so you can not pull the shaft up through the hole now its possible maybe that little clip is stopping the distb from going all the way down in the hole like it should and by you forcing the distb down thats the noise you hearwith that clip binding and also the 2 gears one on the dist and the other on cam shaft not meshing together all I know its most likely something simple, if not you might just have to tear it apart and start over

qwertyd10n · Post by **qwertyd10n** » August 25, 2009, 9:55 am

Tom, I didn't pull the oil filter adapter off the engine... so is what you're asking about still a possibility with me just replacing the oil pump?

As for the clip on the oil pump shaft, it is on the bottom side of the hole that the very bottom of the dizzy slides into. It is far enough down that the oil pump shaft can be pulled up about a 1/4" and the shaft is free moving when pulling up and then letting it settle back down into the hex drive on the oil pump.

The gears on the cam and dizzy seem to be meshing just fine, as the rotor turns as I put the dizzy in place and the dizzy sits down just like it did before.

Tech · Post by **Tech** » August 25, 2009, 10:27 am

two questions

have you used a 1/4" allen/hex head wrench in the bottom of the dizzy to confirm that it can drive a 1/4" shaft at the depth you have measured? (rounded off hex) Does a 5/16 fit in the hole?

did you do the clay ball test to make the depth measurement via a different technique? (just a sanity check)

I have a friend that used to build FE motors, he said that they put the clip low on the shaft with the flat down. they would purposely set the clip too low and then let the dizzy push the shaft down into the oil pump to get maximum engagement between the dizzy gear and the hex shaft

your problem lies somewhere between the bottom of the dizzy and the top of the oil pump. either you shaft is too short, it's not big enough or she has a sloppy hole. I would go with the sloppy hole story!
Tech

qwertyd10n · Post by **qwertyd10n** » August 25, 2009, 12:35 pm

I've called around and no one can match or cross reference the oil pump part number I posted last night.

I did just have an interesting conversation with someone at one of the local speed shops though. Without prompting, he did tell me that most Ford engines would have standard volume/pressure pumps in them, except for something like a 428 in a Mustang or along those lines - they would likely have high pressure pumps in them.

So, given that info and the only reference to my part number online (http://www.428cobrajet.org/id-oil-pump.html), I'm kinda wondering if my old pump is a high pressure pump... which would explain the drop in oil pressure when I went with a standard volume/pressure pump.

Tech, I'll check the bottom of the dizzy once more and try your clay ball trick to be sure everything is engaging... but I'm about as close to 100% sure as I can be that everything is where it should be.

I took the old pump apart last night and didn't see any significant damage, scoring, or pitting. I haven't checked clearances yet, but it all seemed pretty snug... maybe I'll just drop the pan again and put the old pump back in and see if that solves the problem.

And yes, I know, the real problem is then that I have some worn bearings, etc.