Need help determing how bad I screwed up.

BigMike · Post by **BigMike** » December 6, 2011, 2:54 pm

The engine is on the stand and I removed the intake, rocker shafts, and pushrods. I have the water pump off and the timing cover off. I was just going to drop the oil pan and decided to flip the engine over.

I had rags tightly in each intake port. As soon as I started to flip the engine, I tried to stop for two reason. One, I forgot to remove the lifters and two, I thought about latent antifreeze in the engine. It was too late as the engine had momentum. The lifters from the #1 cylinder bank fell out and antifreeze ran all over the place - about a gallon.

I got it right side up but there was antifreeze in the block valley. None got into the cylinders.

I had to get out of the garage when I got it a little cleaned up but heading back out there to pull the pan.

How do I get everything cleaned up to ensure nothings gets damaged. I'd rather not pull the heads but if I have to, I have to.

@R%@#$%

Feel free to call me a dumbass

bluebolt · Post by **bluebolt** » December 6, 2011, 3:05 pm

Doesn't sound too seriours. I would make sure all parts and bolts are accounted for, pull spark plugs out, turn engine crank over several times to make sure no water is in engine, squirt some oil in spark plug holes, turn engine crank over several times more and put plugs back in. You are still pulling the pan right? When you do just try to get any water out, spray with oil and put pan back on. I had an engine that was in a flooded ditch for 12 hours, water up to and in the carb and transmission. Drained everything, put in fresh fluids and ran just fine. The carpet inside however was a smelly mess.

turtle1056 · Post by **turtle1056** » December 6, 2011, 3:16 pm

mmm - a little bit worse - each lifter is matched to a cam lobe because of wear - and can not be mixed up, without usually causing catastrophic results ie ruining the cam lobes.

good luck

BigMike · Post by **BigMike** » December 6, 2011, 3:30 pm

I just pulled the pan and there wasn't any water in it. I think that the water ran out of the head that was on the low side. The water in the valley was minimal from when I righted the engine.

The lifters is a worry though. But, when building Harley engines "they say" the same thing. But if you have an old cam and new lifters, how is the wear pattern any different to the cam? I'm sure there is logic there but I don't see it. A set of lifters can't be that much. I've replaced them in my Harley and don't recall them being expensive and they are basically cheby 350 lifters.

fathead · Post by **fathead** » December 6, 2011, 3:35 pm

And as the cam lobes wear away the metal from the lobes and lifters mixes with the engine oil and drains back to the oil pan where it is picked up by the oil pump and pumped through out the engine via the oil. This very quickly ruins all the bearings in the engine. If you replace the cam and lifters now you can avoid a complete rebuild in the very near future.

BigMike · Post by **BigMike** » December 6, 2011, 3:47 pm

A new cam? Seriously?

I wouldn't replace the cam if I had a collapsed lifter and replaced it with a new one.

Uncle Skip · Post by **Uncle Skip** » December 6, 2011, 4:15 pm

Big Mike.
Don't remove the heads.
I doubt you got antifreeze in the cylinders even if the fluid went in the intakes. Since you removed the rocker arms and pushrods, the valves would be closed off.
IF the lifters fell out of the galley, I'd suggest a new set of lifters, not a new cam.
But be sure to use assembly lube when you put the new ones back in the motor.
Aside from that, rest assured that your are NOT the first person to ever do what you did.
Don't worry, be happy.

bunchoftrucks · Post by **bunchoftrucks** » December 6, 2011, 4:19 pm

I know that if I had my engine down to the point that you do I would definately put and RV type cam in. The low end power and response to the go pedal is definately worth the cost. I have one in my 66 and I love it !! As far figuring out which lifter goes to which I don't know how to look at the wear patterns to help you figure out which was which, sorry.

*ryno* · Post by ***ryno*** » December 6, 2011, 4:22 pm

your lifters wear with your cam. if you mix them upi you can cause some damage.
i think thats what the others were trying to say.
if your not sure what lifters go where, buy some new lifters, not a cam.your new lifters will wear into the cam and be fine.

BigMike · Post by **BigMike** » December 6, 2011, 4:48 pm

Thanks everyone for the advise and Skip, thanks for the words of encouragement. I still feel like a dumbass because I know better.

I'll buy a new set of lifters and install them. NAPA and Advance sell Sealed Power lifters for $4 ($64/set)(Fegeral-Mogul). Does anyone think it is work an extra $10 to buy Edelbrock Performer-Plus Cam Kit - Replacement Lifters for $74?

I removed the rag from each intake port and I feel extremely confident that no water go in the cylinders.

While I was sitting here cussing, I was tempted to say WTH and buy this stuff. But I'm already $600 over budget and might have to sleep in the garage with the Slick if I do.

Edelbrock 2106 - Edelbrock Performer-Plus Cam and Lifter Kits $155 (makes the cam only $80)

Edelbrock 2105 - Edelbrock Performer Intake Manifold $300

Edelbrock 1405 - Edelbrock Performer Carburetor $200

bunchoftrucks · Post by **bunchoftrucks** » December 6, 2011, 4:56 pm

YES. you'd put a cam in the Harley if you had torn down this far wouldn't you???" It's always cheaper do it right the first time' is what I hear my dad saying in my head when I end up in a deal like this. I wish I'd listen more than I do though.

64 f100 · Post by **64 f100** » December 6, 2011, 5:05 pm

Just tell the wife you really screwed up and you have to have that new cam and the cheapest ones are the aftermarket RV cams. Stock cams from Ford cost too much. If she doesn't buy that, well, at least you gave it a try. One other reason for replacing the lifters is that the lifters take a set. If, I were going to use the lifters you have, I would take these all apart and clean out the bores, and pistons. I''ve reused lifters (mix up)and most of the time it is not the end of the world, but you do take a chance. Also, there are plenty of listing for lifters on Evilbay. I don't know if there would be much difference in any of these. Most likely most come from the same place.

Rich

BigMike · Post by **BigMike** » December 6, 2011, 5:07 pm

What is an RV cam?

I don't have a cam bearing tool either.

64 f100 · Post by **64 f100** » December 6, 2011, 5:12 pm

One last thing. The oil we now have does not have the lubrication value of the old oil, since our wonderfull knowitall government has dictated that the lubrication part be taken out. As a result, be carefull when breaking in a new cam. Even with new lifters and old cam I would be carefull. I don't know if anyone makes a special cam break in oil but I suggest you use it. Possibly Royal purple has more zink than the rest. I'm sure someone can help out on this subject. You should already know not to use the wrong oil filter, as some will restrict oil flow.

Rich

qwertyd10n · Post by **qwertyd10n** » December 6, 2011, 5:16 pm

BigMike wrote:Thanks everyone for the advise and Skip, thanks for the words of encouragement. I still feel like a dumbass because I know better.

I'll buy a new set of lifters and install them. NAPA and Advance sell Sealed Power lifters for $4 ($64/set)(Fegeral-Mogul). Does anyone think it is work an extra $10 to buy Edelbrock Performer-Plus Cam Kit - Replacement Lifters for $74?

I removed the rag from each intake port and I feel extremely confident that no water go in the cylinders.

While I was sitting here cussing, I was tempted to say WTH and buy this stuff. But I'm already $600 over budget and might have to sleep in the garage with the Slick if I do.

Edelbrock 2106 - Edelbrock Performer-Plus Cam and Lifter Kits $155 (makes the cam only $80)

Edelbrock 2105 - Edelbrock Performer Intake Manifold $300

Edelbrock 1405 - Edelbrock Performer Carburetor $200

Hey Mike,

Funny how it always seems that you have everything mapped perfectly out and these projects just manage to grow and grow and grow...

One little piece of input from me... if you do decide to go with a new cam kit, intake, and carb, I might suggest considering the Performer RPM intake instead of the regular Performer unit. I put the Performer on the original 352 in my truck a few years back and it did make a bit of difference compared to the old cast iron 2V, but in doing a bunch of research for my new engine, the Performer RPM "performs" much better and I don't believe it would negatively impact the relatively mild modifications you are contemplating. You could pose this question over on the FE Engine Forum web site... there is a lot of experience and information over there. Case in point, a guy named Jay Brown wrote a book that just covers comparing all the different FE intakes.

Anyway, just something else to ponder and my

!

Cheers,
Dion

qwertyd10n · Post by **qwertyd10n** » December 6, 2011, 5:29 pm

64 f100 wrote:One last thing. The oil we now have does not have the lubrication value of the old oil, since our wonderfull knowitall government has dictated that the lubrication part be taken out. As a result, be carefull when breaking in a new cam. Even with new lifters and old cam I would be carefull. I don't know if anyone makes a special cam break in oil but I suggest you use it. Possibly Royal purple has more zink than the rest. I'm sure someone can help out on this subject. You should already know not to use the wrong oil filter, as some will restrict oil flow.

Rich

Hey Rich,

Good point about the oil issue... the first cam in my 445 failed on me and my engine builder took all the precautionary steps to prevent that from happening, including using special Joe Gibbs Break In Oil. He's not convinced it's just an oil issue though... he thinks there have been changes in the camshaft manufacturing process or materials that are used over the years.

Anyway, another good point to consider if looking at using a flat tappet cam...

Cheers,
Dion

bunchoftrucks · Post by **bunchoftrucks** » December 6, 2011, 5:33 pm

It's ground to make low end torque and still be vacuum friendly. Comp cams calls their 'torquer' cams . Look at cams that make the torque gains at low rpm's and not cams that are all high rpm hp types. Check with the local auto parts store and see if they know of any rental shops that have cam bearing tools available

bunchoftrucks · Post by **bunchoftrucks** » December 6, 2011, 5:39 pm

Oh by the way if you do go with the Edelbrock intake use the intake gaskets that they spec. I didn't and ended up with coolant in 4 cylinders. The truck sat about a week and when I went to start it wasn't the least bit happy, luckily I didn't hurt the bottom end when I tried to start it. I pulled a plug and saw the coolant, pulled the rest of the plugs and sprayed antifreeze all over the engine compartment when I hit the starter. Changed out the intake gaskets and it's run fine for the last 12 years.

Jonas · Post by **Jonas** » December 6, 2011, 5:58 pm

Mike,

If you change the cam, which for the price seems like a great idea.

I can't remember exatcly what it is. But it seems like there is sometype of spacer that has to be added or not used. Someone will know.

BigMike · Post by **BigMike** » December 6, 2011, 6:36 pm

I've decided to just get a set of Sealed Pro lifters and be done with it. The engine runs like a sewing machine and I've never once thought that I needed more power.

But I am going to step away from the engine for a day and finish painting the rest of the small parts. I will delay installing the drive-train for one week. Now everything will be able to be assembled at one time and I can crank it up and go.