Truck won't start...

[dcombs]

Hi Guys,

Today my truck decided not to start. It sounded as if the battery was dead. So, I jumped it off my car it and it fired right up. I took off the jumper cables and it died immediately. I tired it again, this time leaving the jumper cables on longer and revving the engine some but then it just died. Jumper cables still attached. When I turned the key again the engine didn't turn over.

Did my alternator or my stater solenoid die? Thoughts?

I appreciate your input...

Thanks,
Danny

[R Pope]

Just a shot in the dark here.....do you have replacement cable ends on either of your battery cables? Sounds like a lack of continuity in a cable, or maybe just a loose connection at the battery post.
If there is a break in the ground cable, and you hook the booster cable to a ground, the engine will run off the booster battery until you unhook the cables.

[Bill W]

sounds like a bad cell in the battery. take it somewhere and have it tested.

[ICEMAN6166]

loose/ bad ground is usually the 1st thing i check for

do you have an alternator or generator ?

if one of those is not functioning and did not charge the battery last time you ran the truck then you would have had no juice to start it this time.
when you hooked the jumpers up there was enough to turn the starter and fire the truck up.
when you disconnected them there was no juice left to run it.

alt/gen is bad and so maybe the battery too now.

i would after first checking the fan belt tension and cable connections
1. charge the battery on a battery charger , if it charges up hook it back up and see what happens
2. if it starts and runs pull the + cable off while its running if it dies the alt/gen is bad. if it stays running it is supplying enough juice to run the truck.put the cable back on .

[dcombs]

Thanks, guys. Some great advice. I appreciate it.

I do have generator, not a alternator. Sorry! I should clarify, the second time I jumped it earlier it died while still connected to the jumper cables.

I just charged the battery and it put it back on. Nothing. Just a click. I do have new battery cables and it's a fairly new battery.

How do I go about looking for a grounding problem?

Thanks,
Danny

[ICEMAN6166]

touch the battery connection to the start post with a metal object (wrench,pliers etcl ) and see if it turns the starter. (it will not start if the key is not on) if it turns the starter the relay is bad. then you can try it again with the key on it should run, to kill it turn the key off.

it will leave marks on the tool and if you leave it touching too long it will get hot so beware

[Toyz]

Quick and easy way is to take your negative jumper cable, hook the clamp to a GOOD engine ground, take the other negative jumper clamp and hook it directly to the battery POST, not cable terminal. You may need to scrape the cable clamp teeth around a bit on both ends to make certain of a good connection. You can do this with the battery cable hooked up. See if this gives you enough amps to crank the engine. If it does, then remove the cable, carefully clean and inspect both ends and re-install. If it does not allow the engine to crank, try the same procedure with the positive post and solenoid terminal connected to battery side. If no improvement there, turn on the headlights; if they are burning brightly, have someone watch them while you attempt to start the truck. If they then dim, you will need to check for a damaged starter. If they don't dim, then you will need to check connections between solenoid and starter. If the headlights are not bright when first turned on, you are back to square one, either the battery is defective, or you have a poor connection.
HERE"S THE BIG THING!
Batteries emit hydrogen and other gases, any poor connection, arc, or other source of ignition, including cigarettes, can be disasterous. There are also other procedures to shortcut diagnosis, just make sure you don't induce any sparking by such things as removing cables while energized, jumping terminals, etc.
Also be absolutely certain the vehicle is out of gear or in park with the emergency brake fully set. If it is an automatic and the headlight checks are good, the circuits associated with the neutral safety switch could be at fault, or the switch could be loose, mis-adjusted, or defective.
You will probably be able to diagnose it in less time than it took me to go through this procedure, especially the "mother hen" parts.
BTW if you choose to try the "jump the solenoid" suggestion, see the "here's the big thing" part above. All due respect to Brian, but the vehicle CAN start under those conditions, you are creating an arc, and you have not conclusively proved the solenoid!
I've done such things all my life; and started to suggest bypassing the solenoid outright, but it's dangerous if you aren't absolutely familiar with the procedure, and overlooks a bunch of other possibilities. I've also seen the disasterous results of the same.
Paul

[ICEMAN6166]

HERE"S THE BIG THING!
Batteries emit hydrogen and other gases, any poor connection, arc, or other source of ignition, including cigarettes, can be disasterous. There are also other procedures to shortcut diagnosis, just make sure you don't induce any sparking by such things as removing cables while energized, jumping terminals, etc.
Paul

while i am not going to disagree with any of these things and certainly do not wish to see or hear of any mishaps involving anyone i must say its not like i have my face with a cigarette right up next to the battery or carburetor when i do the things i posted above.

i do not do things recklessly or without consideration of the possible hazards but i do not live in fear of the worst possible things happening either. common sense tells me when to be careful and i listen to it.

we all have had and seen and heard about accidents and they can and do happen for whatever reasons.

the person doing the work, if he does not feel safe, should not attempt to do it. that will not prevent everything but it will go a long way towards it.


sorry for the hijack of the post i just needed to give my relating to my earlier comments.

[Toyz]

Sorry, Brian, looks like I touched a nerve!
After much consideration, I feel the things I stated needed to be stated. If you feel a need to energize a solenoid, buy a cheap little hand -held switch made for that purpose at an auto parts. It might save you from being that "one in a million".
Now, back to the "can't start with the key off". When you energize that solenoid, in many applications, it sends all available voltage to the coil. That circuit is no longer energized when you remove the jumper, which will probably happen pretty fast as the truck lunges forward if in gear.
Yes, common sense would tell you to start with the transmission in neutral or park, but sometimes things just get overlooked.
I also fail to understand how energizing the solenoid by applying voltage to the start terminal proves the solenoid bad. I would think if you energized it and it did it's job, it might not be bad.
Well, that's MY "two cents worth", valid or not!
Paul

.

[Leeroy]

Maybe try your friends battery from the other car you jumped, that will at least narrow down the battery/alternator/generator question.

[ICEMAN6166]

Sorry, Brian, looks like I touched a nerve!
After much consideration, I feel the things I stated needed to be stated. If you feel a need to energize a solenoid, buy a cheap little hand -held switch made for that purpose at an auto parts. It might save you from being that "one in a million".
Now, back to the "can't start with the key off". When you energize that solenoid, in many applications, it sends all available voltage to the coil. That circuit is no longer energized when you remove the jumper, which will probably happen pretty fast as the truck lunges forward if in gear.
Yes, common sense would tell you to start with the transmission in neutral or park, but sometimes things just get overlooked.
I also fail to understand how energizing the solenoid by applying voltage to the start terminal proves the solenoid bad. I would think if you energized it and it did it's job, it might not be bad.
Well, that's MY "two cents worth", valid or not!
Paul
.

Paul
it is often difficult to gage the experience of those asking questions about certain things,
and especially when not all the info is given in a post.

i must after reading your comment about the relay, concur that when 12v is applied to the start terminal and it did its job it is not bad, it is when it does not energize.
this can even be tested without the starter cable hooked up, using a test light on the starter side, avoiding any possibilty of spinning the starter and starting in gear.

so

in diagnosing a no power to start issue the simplest things must be considered first
in my experience the most common fault is loose connection/corrosion at the battery terminal connection. also old cables with hard (inflexible) spots in them. i have seen many cables that when a bit of insulation is removed are green like a penny found outside after a long time.
this will prevent both the intake of and release of voltage.

next comes the fan belt tension
this is a bit more of an issue with the generators as they are fairly low amperage output

then the battery itself. if it does not have a full 12v, it should be charged and load tested.
now is where we start getting into extra tools- the load tester. even if the battery is fully charged and reads 12-14v, the load test could show it move down beyond the voltage needed to start.
temp related issues may not be to common in the south but i have lots of experience with them.

so
connections clean and tight
fan belt tight
fully charged tested battery

then can we move on to look at other things

again simple

before even testing/jumping the relay the 2 little posts S and I need to be checked for corrosion and looseness of the little boot as well as distress of the wire at its entry to the boot.
same with all the wires on the battery side post. take them off, check the eyelets and the wore ends and clean/repair as necessary.

only after the above have been checked should defective parts be considered.

[dcombs]

Thank you everyone. Brian and Paul, I appreciate your articulate responses. Thanks!

I hoping to have some time today to try your suggestions. My wife and I are having baby number two this week so we're working hard to get everything ready for her arrival.

I'll let you guys know how it goes once i've run through your checklists.

I appreciate it!
Danny

[Toyz]

Danny, congrats on the pending family addition!
Brian is absolutely right on poor connections being the most likely cause;the poster talking about the "emergency" clamp-on terminals was also dead right.
In reality, replacing a solenoid arbitrarily is sometimes a good start, not necessarily because the solenoid is defective, but that in following procedure to replace it, you have hopefully addressed six of the most common problems:
You are going to lift at least one cable at the battery, you will remove the positive cable at the solenoid, as well as the starter cable at the solenoid, the start connector and the ignition connector have been removed and re-connected. (although this does not indicate current in and out), and the replacement part will be free of wear.
At that point, with the help of a 12v test light and a helper, you can verify current to the solenoid @ the start terminal connector.
As Brian stated, probably the most relevant step is load testing the battery, then checking voltage and voltage drop at each connection. Load testing takes specialty equipment; the voltage drop checks can be done with a cheap volt-ohm meter.
Keep us posted as you progress.
Paul

[dcombs]

Sorry for the late reply back. I'm playing catch up. Our daughter is beautiful and already bringing us much joy!

I was able to get the truck going again! Thank you guys so much for your help. It ended up needing a new starter solenoid and a battery. I put on a new cable from the solenoid to the starter too. It was good to hear the engine again and brought a smile to my face.

Then I discovered the exhaust manifold is starting to crack... that's going to be a project for another day.

Thanks again for your help, I appreciate it.

Kindly,
Danny