The Horror in Dallas

clevor347 · Post by **clevor347** » March 11, 2009, 1:42 am

Envision it as sewing a mouse's head onto a cats body. It just doesn't fit right. Chebby should stick with chebby, ford should stick with ford. And actually, the newer younger hot rod builders are using Ford in ford and chevy in ford isn't bringing as much money anymore, and smallblock chevy is the most popular motor because they put it in most of the cars and trucks they made up until now and later on, ford used different motors. Power's not really an excuse either, because muscle mustang magazine took a late eighties 302 with 133,000 miles on it put an intake, carb, aftermarket heads, an intake and got over 500 horses on the stock bottom end. my buddies 383 has everything done to it, he's running 12.3's in the quarter but only making about 400 horses. it's kind of like the re popped parts from china, just because they're cheap doesn't mean we use them? but to each his own, do it how you want.

63BIGWINDOW · Post by **63BIGWINDOW** » March 11, 2009, 8:14 am

prostreet65f100..wrote
I was being serious, I think the chevy motor is a way better engine. Why is that you see 32-34 ford street rods with mainly chevy motors, they hardly ever use a ford motor and when they do I have seen many of them bring a lot less money.

I have built many 32-34 Fords for customers for the last 20 plus years and 99% of the cars that got the generic sbc were installed because of cost and parts availability,most of these guys have no clue as to the reliability/dependability of a ford or chevy engine,it is almost always cost.
I like most here prefer a ford in ford, chevy in chevy, dodge in dodge,they all have great power plants,Ive owned many of all the big three and honestly had more bad luck with GM products,but being American I still buy them.
So to say the chevy motor is used by hot rod builders because it is a better power plant is funny,but you are entitled to your opinion.

charliemccraney · Post by **charliemccraney** » March 11, 2009, 9:31 am

clevor347 wrote:Power's not really an excuse either, because muscle mustang magazine took a late eighties 302 with 133,000 miles on it put an intake, carb, aftermarket heads, an intake and got over 500 horses on the stock bottom end.

1.65hp/ci with those changes alone?? That seems a little too good to be true. No cam swap? I guess compression could have increased with the new heads? Plus I've heard from my friend who builds anything from flatheads, straight 8 buicks, BMW, Porsche, viper, small and big block Ford, Chevy and Mopars, Y Blocks, pretty much anything, that a stock 302 block is not going to stay together long at 500+ hp.

Garbz · Post by **Garbz** » March 11, 2009, 10:36 am

That a stock 302 block is not going to stay together long at 500+ hp.

Yup, they have a nasty habit of splitting right down the middle of the cam valley at those levels...

Garbz

ICEMAN6166 · Post by **ICEMAN6166** » March 11, 2009, 10:44 am

clevor347 wrote:Envision it as sewing a mouse's head onto a cats body. It just doesn't fit right..

indeed

does not look right, does not smell right....

could that be because
its just not right !

and even though its been done more than once
2, 20 or 2,000,000 wrongs dont make it right.

prostreet65f100 · Post by **prostreet65f100** » March 11, 2009, 11:57 am

charliemccraney wrote:
clevor347 wrote:Power's not really an excuse either, because muscle mustang magazine took a late eighties 302 with 133,000 miles on it put an intake, carb, aftermarket heads, an intake and got over 500 horses on the stock bottom end.
1.65hp/ci with those changes alone?? That seems a little too good to be true. No cam swap? I guess compression could have increased with the new heads? Plus I've heard from my friend who builds anything from flatheads, straight 8 buicks, BMW, Porsche, viper, small and big block Ford, Chevy and Mopars, Y Blocks, pretty much anything, that a stock 302 block is not going to stay together long at 500+ hp.

I agree, I thought those numbers sound a bit rediculous. I had a 1995 mustang cobra the had a full built 331 stroker motor with all forged internals, trickflow head, trick flow upper and lower intake, and every other go fast part you can imagine it had the best of everything. It was only putting out about 550hp. I have just had a bad experience wih every ford car or truck I've owned and I've owned a bunch.

Slick Fan · Post by **Slick Fan** » March 11, 2009, 12:22 pm

Where the heck is JC? Did he accidentally kick the modem off it's stand & bugger up some of the wires?

ICEMAN6166 · Post by **ICEMAN6166** » March 11, 2009, 1:42 pm

Slick Fan wrote:Where the heck is JC? Did he accidentally kick the modem off it's stand & bugger up some of the wires?

maybe its warmed up some and he is working on his truck.

he was in the chat room Sunday.
you should stop by there

, has been a big crowd lately.

clevor347 · Post by **clevor347** » March 11, 2009, 3:54 pm

It was late, I wasn't thinking now I look stupid. Lol here's what they did.
Muscle Mustang magazine wanted to test the TFS twisted wedge head versus the AFR 185 head. They used a stock 5.0 L HO short block with 130,000 miles on it. They installed the fairly radical Comp XE274HR cam. The TFS heads in conjunction with the comp cam made 396 HP at 6,000 rpm, on the 9:1 compression 302. This was NOT a stroker motor. THe AFR 185 heads (they come CNC ported from the factory) did even better, producing over 400 HP out of 302 cubes.
And as for the splitting from the second main and then down the middle, here's some pictures where it happened. My dad told me in the eighties he saw stock 302 blocks turning 10000 rpms but I don't see it happening?

Sorry for running my mouth like an idiot, just don't really like people ranting on Ford being a useless motor performance wise. Here's the afr dyno stuff.

302:

RPM

Torque

H.P.

2000
2500
3000
3500
4000
4500
5000
5500
6000
6100
6500
7000
7500

285
296
326
342
362
374
387
398
392
391
348
n/a
n/a

105
139
186
228
275
320
368
417
448
455
430
n/a
n/a

Dyno Test Criteria
Horsepower:
Engine:
Heads:
Compression:
Carburetor:
Ignition:
Cam:

Exhaust:
Fuel:
Manifold

455 HP
302ci
185cc AFR
10:1
650 cfm Speed Demon 84/87 Jets
MSD Digital 7, 36° Timing
Comp Cams Extreme Energy Hyd Roller 282 Cam, 565/574 232/240 @.050 with 1.6 Rockers, 112 Lobe Sep.
1 3/4
92 Octane
Victor Jr.
Here's a 331 stroker

RPM

Torque

H.P.

7200
8500

502
n/a

n/a
751

Dyno Test Criteria
Horsepower:
Engine:
Heads:
Compression:
Carburetor:
Cam:
Manifold:
Rocker Arms:
Headers:
Rods:

751 HP
347ci
205cc AFR
13:1
Single 1050 CFM Carb
Comp Cams Trick Roller Cam (279-285-800 lift)
Super Victor Manifold
Jesel 1.7 Rockers
Custom made Hedman Headers (1.718 dia)
Manley aluminum rods (5.40 inches)

That's drag racing stuff though, not really a street driver.

prostreet65f100 · Post by **prostreet65f100** » March 11, 2009, 8:48 pm

Sorry if my opinions offended anyone it wasn't my intentions I have just had a lot of bad experiences with ford maybe its just my luck and not the brand but it makes me feel better to blame it on the brand. lol A few months back my ford ranger broke down on me 3 times in one month. I sat on the side f the parkway for 3 hours at 2:30am 175miles from my house. I didn't even know what road I was on or where I was at since I was following people to a truck show.
Once again sorry if I offended anyone.

Anthony · Post by **Anthony** » March 11, 2009, 10:04 pm

there are lemons in every brand. I know because I am a magnet. I have owned dodge motor and 3 tranny. 67 ford motor and 2 heads, toyota, blown motor and sold, jeep j-10 2 motors, 84 s-10 rebuilt and a motor, suzuki transfer case(bought off my sis and she just put motor in), chevette, no problems

, 69 GMC rebuilt motor then blew rings out, 63 econoline truck new longblock from advance, Maverick finally lost mains, 84 j-10 just installed tranny, guess I'm rambling but as I see it there is no better one, you can get good and bad in all , just my

Anthony

Shawn F. · Post by **Shawn F.** » March 11, 2009, 10:08 pm

Garbs, why is it that the 302 blocks split down the middle like that? Any way to help/fix this? I am guessing not since it's the actual block or metal itself but just wondering. I own a Ford, Chevy, and Mopar. I will tell you that my chevies are easier to work on as far as available parts for things such as my 63 Nova compaired to the 66 F100 or other similar vehicles. My 46 Chrysler 3 window is a pain in the butt to find anything for but the inline 6 motors on these are BEASTS and were used in military, government (one of our old brush trucks had one) , and tractors and other vehicles up until the 70's I believe. With a Ford I have only ever had a 360 which did fine but horrible on fuel, 302 which was a GREAT quick revving motor and now a 351W which I love. They all have their pro's and con's but one thing you need to know is if your on a Ford site and talk junk about a Ford even if it's just your oppinion, be prepared to get smack talked right back to you.

prostreet65f100 · Post by **prostreet65f100** » March 11, 2009, 10:41 pm

Shawn F. wrote:They all have their pro's and con's but one thing you need to know is if your on a Ford site and talk junk about a Ford even if it's just your oppinion, be prepared to get smack talked right back to you.

I fully expected someone to same something, I was simply stating my opinion and experience with Fords. I just decide to be nice and say sorry since I was on a ford site incase I hurt anybodys feelings. Some people treat this ford V.S. chevy thing like religion.

Shawn F. · Post by **Shawn F.** » March 11, 2009, 11:58 pm

I understand. I did not mean for that to sound mean either so sorry if you took it that way. Trust me, I have been in the same situation as you but learned my lessong to just not even talk about Chevy around a Ford site and visa versa.
I am one who likes to keep Chevy in a Chevy, Ford in a Ford, Mopar in Mopar, etc etc.

clevor347 · Post by **clevor347** » March 12, 2009, 2:08 am

The second main chatters an breaks at high rpms from what I've read. I'll get corrected if I'm wrong. It's just a weak point in the block I guess. You can get aftermarket 4 bolt mains from bessel but I personally don't know how well they hold up, a main girdle helps some. An this is a Ford site, so you'll get back what you dish in on opinions as far as that goes. My grandpa liked fords, my dad likes fords, i like fords, it goes on and on. Guess down here in the bible belt it's alot more than in other places. All cars are decent in my opinion, I just prefer Fords because they're what I was brought up around.

charliemccraney · Post by **charliemccraney** » March 12, 2009, 7:01 am

Shawn F. wrote:Garbs, why is it that the 302 blocks split down the middle like that? Any way to help/fix this?

Yep. Get a Y block!

No, really, limit the power to about 400hp with a stock block. If you plan for much more, plan on an aftermarket block. The stockers just weren't designed for that.

Post by **Greg D** » March 12, 2009, 12:15 pm

I personally like Fords in my Fords etc. Back in the old days it was put the most power you could find at the local junkyard between your rails, Caddy, Chevy, Buick, etc. This rightly considered traditional hotrodding. Other than that, if you like it and it's yours what the heck. I more notice well done work myself.
Aren't you guys getting bored with doing this yet?

Slick Fan · Post by **Slick Fan** » March 12, 2009, 1:26 pm

ICEMAN6166 wrote:
he was in the chat room Sunday.
you should stop by there , has been a big crowd lately.

I'm not much of a chat room guy...especially when they're busy. I can't type that fast, so I like forums, where the posts hold still.

deviant1 · Post by **deviant1** » March 12, 2009, 2:03 pm

Off subject, but I just noticed as of this reply Slick Fan, you have just hit 4000 posts!

FORDBOYpete · Post by **FORDBOYpete** » March 12, 2009, 2:08 pm

With That. I don't necessiarily seem to have time when it's time to chat either . . . . . There's just too much going on with the rest of life. I come here for a well earned break and a little therapy.

I also agree the proliferation or Orange engines is money not superiority in most cases where people put them in otherwise good vehicles. . .

IMHO The reason Little Block Fords break in half is they're not designed to turn 9K & Make 500+ horse pressure on "snort". For all those uninformed folks that's what Large Block Fords are for without 9,000 Rpm' they make
well over 500 hp, under 5800 Rpm & don't break.

Shoot!. . . . . C9VEs & D0VEs make 485 Horsepressure @ 510 Lb/Ft @ 4800Rpm it in Granma's 69 /70 Lincoln mark with a slip shift C-6 A/T. . . .
No 400 Blowtie will even come close to doing that. But even so they will break anyway. I made a good living replacing 400 SBCs also those so called "Tall Block" 396 & 427 Truck engines where pistons will actually swapped cylinders as they explode . . . .

Red Lewis got rich towing GM Trucks into shops from off interatates. . . . so much for relaibility, Huh?. . . .

And, based strictly on fact, only reliable SB Blowtie is LS-9 which about 1 in 10 blowtie fans ever heard of, or even know about.

Hey Just My

on this endless chicken or the egg argument.

Now there's a topic for a Poll Huh?

FBp